Spiritual Aesthetics: The Rebirth of Poetry (Part I)

[AshvinP]

SS, thank you for sharing the above. It's very interesting to notice the difference in these aesthetic approaches. I am not familiar with Tere Vaden or any of that philosophy, so I can only go on my impression of what is written and translated above. The lyrics especially convey to me a sense of circularity, which also fits with Vaden's imagery of "wheel of languages". With that imagery I sense a sort of never-ending cycle of birth and death, going forth and returning, what Nietzsche may have called "eternal recurrence of the same" (although I am aware there are many different takes on what that actually meant in his philosophy). For me, that stands in pretty stark contrast to the spiral imagery of Western spiritual tradition (mostly esoteric but relatively easy to spot in Western philosophy and especially poetic philosophy), where there is a cyclical progression which is also ever-expanding into higher realms of knowledge. That is what we get from poetry of Dante, Milton, Goethe, Schiller, Coleridge, and some others.

That is not to say the former approach has no role to play - I know in these times just to say one perspective seems more encompassing than another is deemed offensive or a claim to absolute superiority. That is not the case at all. As said before, I cannot even judge the meanings of these different approaches apart from my intuitive sense of what they are conveying in English translations and my very basic and general knowledge of Eastern or indigenous traditions. I think it's clear what perspective I adopt, though, and that is also what I believe we find in the aesthetic tradition of the West - a view that the Spirit is metamorphosing towards higher and higher convergence of the essential meanings behind art, philosophy, science and spirituality through the Self-knowledge of individual human beings. Everything, from art and philosophy to economics and politics, is only useful in so far as it is reborn, by each individual's thoughtful contemplation, in the essence of that Spirit.

A translation of a poem from the book of poetry I wrote long time ago:

THE EMPATHY OF SHAME

What thought is thought
what feel is felt
of such a god
in such a god
who in front of all
can't even feel shame
but in his vertical ascend
still flees his shadow?

Nice of you to mention spiral. Long long time ago I had a meditation of the Slinky toy, imagining running along the spiral as the Slinky is expanding in it's jump from the stair step. And then the slinky toy rotates in the air towards next stair step of integrating gravity, the top end of the Slinky becoming the bottom end of the spiral which hits the stair and the spiral starts to contract while I still keep on running along it, now upside down. And then, inevitably, the Slinky crushes the runner of the spiral as it fully contracts, gathering momentum from gravity to it's next jump upwards.

It's not that difficult to see also the sadomasochistic theodikea aspect of the holy geometry of a steel spring.

True, from the perspective of unknowing man, the light revealed by the spiral is a heavy, even cruel and oppressive, burden. No one likes too bright of a light shown on their shadow. One man was the Light and look what happened to him

[SanteriSatama]

True, from the perspective of unknowing man, the light revealed by the spiral is a heavy, even cruel and oppressive, burden. No one likes too bright of a light shown on their shadow. One man was the Light and look what happened to him

What does European science teach? And the myth of Icarus? Light revealed by the Spiral of Elsewhere comes always from the past. It is only a reflection, the Source unreachable. Just an idea.

What does the world, including European science, teach? That light is born from so darkness so heavy and crushing, that it starts to shine. The unknowing man reaches for the idea of One-man, unaware that he, like each of us, is a shining star, a source of light, the spark in the crushing darkness.

[DandelionSoul]

Thank you guys for the consideration and complements, and the great poetry submissions! I hope others will submit some as well. In fact, if you are reading this right now, please consider submitting your favorite poem or the first good one which pops into your mind!

You have said so much here that resonates with so much of my thought and experience that I'm not sure where to start unpacking it, but thank you for taking the time to write this.

It was my pleasure! I look forward to hearing more of your thoughts on this and other topics.

I am still not sure where to start responding, so I'm just going to talk haphazardly about the thoughts evoked by reading both the OP and the subsequent responses.

The discussion on how to read carries echoes of Lectio Divina and other devotional reading methods, and connects strongly to the way I read the Bible as a (rather heretical) Christian.

The reflections on the structure and aesthetics of poetry fall in line with how I experience poetry, how I write it, and even how I experience and write prose. I'm convinced the best prose is poetry disguised as paragraphs. Brought to mind also is Alan Watts' reflection on the connection between pleasure and discipline: that although our culture has driven a wedge between the two, the greatest pleasures require the cultivation of disciplines. In this case, it's necessary to cultivate both the vocabulary and the poetic mindset -- the faculty of imaginative knowing -- to grasp and be grasped by poetry.

When Steiner says that engaging the intellect to understand the verbal content of the poetry interrupts the artistic, I suspect this is what's meant, and I would also suggest that the engagement of the intellect to process the verbal content is often a necessary initial stage: we cannot imaginatively know a text if we cannot read it at all. But we can't live there, spinning the intellectual wheels into overanalyzed ruts.

Barfield's comments on vowels and consonants are fascinating, and I will need to sit with that for a while and see for myself before I can comment further on the specific principle. Still, I resonate strongly with the general principle that the inner principles of being and the world of shapes and forms are not two, and that the world in the soul and the soul in the world are not two, and that poetry done well and read well will nurture an awareness of that.

Finally, as I read both the essay and the responses and I see talk of the imaginal, a warning against intellectual overanalysis, the meaning held in the poetic structure itself, and a weighty discussion of spirals, I can't help thinking of "Lateralus" by Tool. If you haven't heard it, the music does get a touch heavy. The lyrics and the Genius notes are well worth a read.

[AshvinP]

True, from the perspective of unknowing man, the light revealed by the spiral is a heavy, even cruel and oppressive, burden. No one likes too bright of a light shown on their shadow. One man was the Light and look what happened to him

What does European science teach? And the myth of Icarus? Light revealed by the Spiral of Elsewhere comes always from the past. It is only a reflection, the Source unreachable. Just an idea.

What does the world, including European science, teach? That light is born from so darkness so heavy and crushing, that it starts to shine. The unknowing man reaches for the idea of One-man, unaware that he, like each of us, is a shining star, a source of light, the spark in the crushing darkness.

Yes that is precisely the revelation of the "good news". It is also precisely the focus of Part 2 (about half done, which probably means 25%...), so I won't comment too much more here. Only that the idea of One-man has been made a reality, and the last few thousand years of aesthetic progression serve an important purpose, or many important purposes, one of which is the cultivation of humility and devotion in the realization of our inner light. When I say "purpose" I do not mean anything other than the natural unfolding of the metamorphic process.

[AshvinP]

Thank you guys for the consideration and complements, and the great poetry submissions! I hope others will submit some as well. In fact, if you are reading this right now, please consider submitting your favorite poem or the first good one which pops into your mind!

You have said so much here that resonates with so much of my thought and experience that I'm not sure where to start unpacking it, but thank you for taking the time to write this.

It was my pleasure! I look forward to hearing more of your thoughts on this and other topics.

I am still not sure where to start responding, so I'm just going to talk haphazardly about the thoughts evoked by reading both the OP and the subsequent responses.

The discussion on how to read carries echoes of Lectio Divina and other devotional reading methods, and connects strongly to the way I read the Bible as a (rather heretical) Christian.

The reflections on the structure and aesthetics of poetry fall in line with how I experience poetry, how I write it, and even how I experience and write prose. I'm convinced the best prose is poetry disguised as paragraphs. Brought to mind also is Alan Watts' reflection on the connection between pleasure and discipline: that although our culture has driven a wedge between the two, the greatest pleasures require the cultivation of disciplines. In this case, it's necessary to cultivate both the vocabulary and the poetic mindset -- the faculty of imaginative knowing -- to grasp and be grasped by poetry.

When Steiner says that engaging the intellect to understand the verbal content of the poetry interrupts the artistic, I suspect this is what's meant, and I would also suggest that the engagement of the intellect to process the verbal content is often a necessary initial stage: we cannot imaginatively know a text if we cannot read it at all. But we can't live there, spinning the intellectual wheels into overanalyzed ruts.

Barfield's comments on vowels and consonants are fascinating, and I will need to sit with that for a while and see for myself before I can comment further on the specific principle. Still, I resonate strongly with the general principle that the inner principles of being and the world of shapes and forms are not two, and that the world in the soul and the soul in the world are not two, and that poetry done well and read well will nurture an awareness of that.

Finally, as I read both the essay and the responses and I see talk of the imaginal, a warning against intellectual overanalysis, the meaning held in the poetic structure itself, and a weighty discussion of spirals, I can't help thinking of "Lateralus" by Tool. If you haven't heard it, the music does get a touch heavy. The lyrics and the Genius notes are well worth a read.

There is likewise much to unpack in your insightful response above! I will have to follow up later today. For now I will say that I love Tool! I actually went to one of their concerts right before the pandemic. The pot and forty-six and two are some of my go to songs for them, but I will relisten to lateralus. Their lyrics are definitely steeped in esoteric symbolism.

[AshvinP]

Thank you guys for the consideration and complements, and the great poetry submissions! I hope others will submit some as well. In fact, if you are reading this right now, please consider submitting your favorite poem or the first good one which pops into your mind!



It was my pleasure! I look forward to hearing more of your thoughts on this and other topics.

I am still not sure where to start responding, so I'm just going to talk haphazardly about the thoughts evoked by reading both the OP and the subsequent responses.

The discussion on how to read carries echoes of Lectio Divina and other devotional reading methods, and connects strongly to the way I read the Bible as a (rather heretical) Christian.

The reflections on the structure and aesthetics of poetry fall in line with how I experience poetry, how I write it, and even how I experience and write prose. I'm convinced the best prose is poetry disguised as paragraphs. Brought to mind also is Alan Watts' reflection on the connection between pleasure and discipline: that although our culture has driven a wedge between the two, the greatest pleasures require the cultivation of disciplines. In this case, it's necessary to cultivate both the vocabulary and the poetic mindset -- the faculty of imaginative knowing -- to grasp and be grasped by poetry.

When Steiner says that engaging the intellect to understand the verbal content of the poetry interrupts the artistic, I suspect this is what's meant, and I would also suggest that the engagement of the intellect to process the verbal content is often a necessary initial stage: we cannot imaginatively know a text if we cannot read it at all. But we can't live there, spinning the intellectual wheels into overanalyzed ruts.

Barfield's comments on vowels and consonants are fascinating, and I will need to sit with that for a while and see for myself before I can comment further on the specific principle. Still, I resonate strongly with the general principle that the inner principles of being and the world of shapes and forms are not two, and that the world in the soul and the soul in the world are not two, and that poetry done well and read well will nurture an awareness of that.

Finally, as I read both the essay and the responses and I see talk of the imaginal, a warning against intellectual overanalysis, the meaning held in the poetic structure itself, and a weighty discussion of spirals, I can't help thinking of "Lateralus" by Tool. If you haven't heard it, the music does get a touch heavy. The lyrics and the Genius notes are well worth a read.

There is likewise much to unpack in your insightful response above! I will have to follow up later today. For now I will say that I love Tool! I actually went to one of their concerts right before the pandemic. The pot and forty-six and two are some of my go to songs for them, but I will relisten to lateralus. Their lyrics are definitely steeped in esoteric symbolism.

Those Lateralus lyrics are amazingly fitting to this topic! Which also goes to show the universality of aesthetic form. It is a true bridge between instinct, desire ("pleasure" as you say), feeling and knowledge (reasoned, imaginative, inspirative and intuitive). We are usually moving too fast, so to speak, to notice how much sheer delight we can take in that process of attaining higher knowledge across the entire spectrum, even our most basic abstract reasoning process (the "necessary initial stage" you mention). Even on a metaphysics forum where you would expect it to be noticed the most, it remains a sort of chimera most of the time, or even becomes something that must be actively fought against.

But likewise, in fighting against the fighting against, we can start dwelling too much in the past and not looking sufficiently to the future. That is why the metamorphic view of Goethe, Steiner and Barfield, among others, is so helpful - through it we never lose sight that the "end" of each era is only the beginning of a new one, embracing the Ouroboros spiral Cleric mentions on the other thread. Part II of poetic installment will hopefully bring that out more. I actually started writing about music first, and probably should have posted that first, since it is so critical to the poetic aspect. But at least now I can re-listen to Tool for some more inspiration before posting it! Thanks for that and I hope to hear even more of your insights going forward from that good night as we "rage, rage, against the dying of the Light".

[SanteriSatama]

We are usually moving too fast, so to speak, to notice how much sheer delight we can take in that process of attaining higher knowledge across the entire spectrum, even our most basic abstract reasoning process (the "necessary initial stage" you mention). Even on a metaphysics forum where you would expect it to be noticed the most, it remains a sort of chimera most of the time, or even becomes something that must be actively fought against.

But likewise, in fighting against the fighting against, we can start dwelling too much in the past and not looking sufficiently to the future. That is why the metamorphic view of Goethe, Steiner and Barfield, among others, is so helpful - through it we never lose sight that the "end" of each era is only the beginning of a new one, embracing the Ouroboros spiral Cleric mentions on the other thread. Part II of poetic installment will hopefully bring that out more. I actually started writing about music first, and probably should have posted that first, since it is so critical to the poetic aspect. But at least now I can re-listen to Tool for some more inspiration before posting it! Thanks for that and I hope to hear even more of your insights going forward from that good night as we "rage, rage, against the dying of the Light".

Cavafy is a poet of Hellenistic decay and nostalgia, with many parallels with the post-modern condition and zeitgeist, era of the decay in comparison with the formerly vibrant metanarratives (of colonialism, modernism etc.). With the death of Greek polis and the political-communal, Hellenistic zeitgeist became focused on philosophical and spiritual search for meaning. Nostalgia does not mean (only) romantic attitude towards past, Yearn for Return is the central theme of Odysseia, where Ithaca stands for both past and future as the dialectical other of the present journey.

[SanteriSatama]

GOD ABANDONS ANTHONY, by C.P Cavafy

1st, Interpetation of the Greek original by Dalaras.
2nd, A decanent reading of an English translation
3rd, An interpretation of the original by Leonard Cohen

[DandelionSoul]

There is likewise much to unpack in your insightful response above! I will have to follow up later today. For now I will say that I love Tool! I actually went to one of their concerts right before the pandemic. The pot and forty-six and two are some of my go to songs for them, but I will relisten to lateralus. Their lyrics are definitely steeped in esoteric symbolism.

Those Lateralus lyrics are amazingly fitting to this topic! Which also goes to show the universality of aesthetic form. It is a true bridge between instinct, desire ("pleasure" as you say), feeling and knowledge (reasoned, imaginative, inspirative and intuitive). We are usually moving too fast, so to speak, to notice how much sheer delight we can take in that process of attaining higher knowledge across the entire spectrum, even our most basic abstract reasoning process (the "necessary initial stage" you mention). Even on a metaphysics forum where you would expect it to be noticed the most, it remains a sort of chimera most of the time, or even becomes something that must be actively fought against.

But likewise, in fighting against the fighting against, we can start dwelling too much in the past and not looking sufficiently to the future. That is why the metamorphic view of Goethe, Steiner and Barfield, among others, is so helpful - through it we never lose sight that the "end" of each era is only the beginning of a new one, embracing the Ouroboros spiral Cleric mentions on the other thread. Part II of poetic installment will hopefully bring that out more. I actually started writing about music first, and probably should have posted that first, since it is so critical to the poetic aspect. But at least now I can re-listen to Tool for some more inspiration before posting it! Thanks for that and I hope to hear even more of your insights going forward from that good night as we "rage, rage, against the dying of the Light".

Re: Lateralus -- It's actually my favorite Tool song, though they definitely have some other gems. "Schism" is amazing, and I don't know if you've listened to their Fear Inoculum album, but sit with it and give the whole thing a listen when you can.

Also, I dunno if you read the notes, but I kinda thought SanteriSatama in particular might appreciate the use of the Fibonacci sequence in the timings of the verses, the syllable counts of the lines, and the time signatures.

If we expand our discussion about the aesthetic structure of poetry to music more broadly, I find that songs were the musical structure is reflecting the lyrics directly are fulfilling in a special way. The first verse of Cohen's "Hallelujah" (another favorite song) comes to mind immediately: "It goes like this, the fourth, the fifth! The minor fall and the major lift!" One of the last poems I wrote, a few years ago, was a reflection of an intense and not altogether pleasant psychedelic experience and I tried to integrate that. I'm shy about sharing my poetry (especially on a metaphysics board where precisely delineating concepts like "consciousness," "ego," "spirit," etc. is typically a very important part of the discourse), but it was an exploration of a cycle of ego dissolution where the poetic structure, the meter and rhyme, fell apart as "I" did, and then snapped back together when my partner called my name:

You call my name; I come to be--
A moment in eternity,
Anchored in the Void.
I feel my spirit coalesce,
Aware of my own consciousness,
Ego undestroyed.

Your summons flashes in the dark--
The faintest momentary spark--
But candlelight is frail.
The Nothing eats me from within,
The whirling chaos starts to spin,
And composition fails.

I feel my thoughts disintegrate.
I feel the Void eradicate
The structure of myself.
My soul, unmoored, begins to drift,
My words are smashed upon the rocks.
The center cannot hold.

The madness calls me farther still;
I feel myself forget to be
Nothing and Everything
Consumed and undone
Infinity blooming in shadow
Nullified in the All
Shattered in the terror of Divinity

You call my name; I come to be--
A moment in eternity.

And yes, in terms of the sheer delight... That's why I'm here. Sometimes we get so caught up in the logical arguments and surgical conceptual precision that we forget that Spirit is fundamentally playful, that love itself is a kind of play, and we run the risk of taking ourselves overly seriously in the process. We forget, and instead of sincere and playful we become grave and serious, and we forget the delight with which the whole discipline of philosophy wooed us in the first place. I don't know if you've read The Little Prince but it's very relevant here.

I have more to say (inevitable in a bottomless conversation) but I have to get ready for work. Thank you for taking the time to, well, play with me.

[AshvinP]

There is likewise much to unpack in your insightful response above! I will have to follow up later today. For now I will say that I love Tool! I actually went to one of their concerts right before the pandemic. The pot and forty-six and two are some of my go to songs for them, but I will relisten to lateralus. Their lyrics are definitely steeped in esoteric symbolism.

Those Lateralus lyrics are amazingly fitting to this topic! Which also goes to show the universality of aesthetic form. It is a true bridge between instinct, desire ("pleasure" as you say), feeling and knowledge (reasoned, imaginative, inspirative and intuitive). We are usually moving too fast, so to speak, to notice how much sheer delight we can take in that process of attaining higher knowledge across the entire spectrum, even our most basic abstract reasoning process (the "necessary initial stage" you mention). Even on a metaphysics forum where you would expect it to be noticed the most, it remains a sort of chimera most of the time, or even becomes something that must be actively fought against.

But likewise, in fighting against the fighting against, we can start dwelling too much in the past and not looking sufficiently to the future. That is why the metamorphic view of Goethe, Steiner and Barfield, among others, is so helpful - through it we never lose sight that the "end" of each era is only the beginning of a new one, embracing the Ouroboros spiral Cleric mentions on the other thread. Part II of poetic installment will hopefully bring that out more. I actually started writing about music first, and probably should have posted that first, since it is so critical to the poetic aspect. But at least now I can re-listen to Tool for some more inspiration before posting it! Thanks for that and I hope to hear even more of your insights going forward from that good night as we "rage, rage, against the dying of the Light".

Re: Lateralus -- It's actually my favorite Tool song, though they definitely have some other gems. "Schism" is amazing, and I don't know if you've listened to their Fear Inoculum album, but sit with it and give the whole thing a listen when you can.

Also, I dunno if you read the notes, but I kinda thought SanteriSatama in particular might appreciate the use of the Fibonacci sequence in the timings of the verses, the syllable counts of the lines, and the time signatures.

If we expand our discussion about the aesthetic structure of poetry to music more broadly, I find that songs were the musical structure is reflecting the lyrics directly are fulfilling in a special way. The first verse of Cohen's "Hallelujah" (another favorite song) comes to mind immediately: "It goes like this, the fourth, the fifth! The minor fall and the major lift!" One of the last poems I wrote, a few years ago, was a reflection of an intense and not altogether pleasant psychedelic experience and I tried to integrate that. I'm shy about sharing my poetry (especially on a metaphysics board where precisely delineating concepts like "consciousness," "ego," "spirit," etc. is typically a very important part of the discourse), but it was an exploration of a cycle of ego dissolution where the poetic structure, the meter and rhyme, fell apart as "I" did, and then snapped back together when my partner called my name:

You call my name; I come to be--
A moment in eternity,
Anchored in the Void.
I feel my spirit coalesce,
Aware of my own consciousness,
Ego undestroyed.

Your summons flashes in the dark--
The faintest momentary spark--
But candlelight is frail.
The Nothing eats me from within,
The whirling chaos starts to spin,
And composition fails.

I feel my thoughts disintegrate.
I feel the Void eradicate
The structure of myself.
My soul, unmoored, begins to drift,
My words are smashed upon the rocks.
The center cannot hold.

The madness calls me farther still;
I feel myself forget to be
Nothing and Everything
Consumed and undone
Infinity blooming in shadow
Nullified in the All
Shattered in the terror of Divinity

You call my name; I come to be--
A moment in eternity.

And yes, in terms of the sheer delight... That's why I'm here. Sometimes we get so caught up in the logical arguments and surgical conceptual precision that we forget that Spirit is fundamentally playful, that love itself is a kind of play, and we run the risk of taking ourselves overly seriously in the process. We forget, and instead of sincere and playful we become grave and serious, and we forget the delight with which the whole discipline of philosophy wooed us in the first place. I don't know if you've read The Little Prince but it's very relevant here.

I have more to say (inevitable in a bottomless conversation) but I have to get ready for work. Thank you for taking the time to, well, play with me.

Great poem, thanks for sharing! I basically just go to the "best of playlist" for any band these days. But yes I read the notes on Lateralus and that, along with the lyrics, is what prompted me to bring up the "universality of aesthetic form". I have no hard time believing that Fibonacci sequence would naturally arise in the structure of their songs. You discuss "play" and that is also right in line with what I have been writing about for Part II, especially via Schiller who was a champion of the playful nature of aesthetics in relation to our youth and the Divine. It is great when different, sometimes even opposed, perspectives converge on these things like they did in Goethe and Schiller and as they are also doing now.