Questions on a system theory of physics

[SanteriSatama]

There is a distinction present in this writing. For clarifying examples:

1111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111
1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1

snowball

snow ball

See the distinction between symbols "1"? Adding or otherwise joining a distinction to a symbol does not change the symbol, and in that sense the distinction is what in mathematics and computation is called "identity element". More specifically, the distinction is the identity element of concatenation theory: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concatenation_theory

So, we can call a blank page with only identity elements and without any visible symbols a "void", which can stare terrifyingly at a writer's block.

And yet, all identity elements of a blank screen or between strings can ooze meaning and creative potential.

[Shaibei]

Wonderful chart

Thank you . It’s not really how I intended it, but maybe useful just to see what doesn’t resonate if nothing else.

The diagram you drew reminds me of Schopenhauer's method. God forbid I do not accuse you of thinking like him. All I am saying is that in his method the will expresses the original unity and ideas the objectification of the will.
It's funny, I just wanted to argue something about the meaning(lessness) of the world in an idealistic method that talks about the necessity of relationships between entities. But then I remembered that, well, not only Spinoza believed that there wasn't any purpose to being. So whether we use "reason" or "will" we see that these two philosophers come to a meaningless world. (This may not be a coincidence, Schopenhauer was to some extent influenced by Spinoza).
To me, even a completely immanent conception of idealism ultimately leads to a "thing in itself" that we are not really able to grasp. We can be amused by statements about what is happening beyond space and time without really grasping what it is. It's good, there's where to strive and a reason to look up. imagination is also important

[AshvinP]

Wonderful chart

Thank you . It’s not really how I intended it, but maybe useful just to see what doesn’t resonate if nothing else.

The diagram you drew reminds me of Schopenhauer's method. God forbid I do not accuse you of thinking like him. All I am saying is that in his method the will expresses the original unity and ideas the objectification of the will.
It's funny, I just wanted to argue something about the meaning(lessness) of the world in an idealistic method that talks about the necessity of relationships between entities. But then I remembered that, well, not only Spinoza believed that there wasn't any purpose to being. So whether we use "reason" or "will" we see that these two philosophers come to a meaningless world. (This may not be a coincidence, Schopenhauer was to some extent influenced by Spinoza).
To me, even a completely immanent conception of idealism ultimately leads to a "thing in itself" that we are not really able to grasp. We can be amused by statements about what is happening beyond space and time without really grasping what it is. It's good, there's where to strive and a reason to look up. imagination is also important

But it does not remain a reason to strive upwards for very long. Eventually we get tired of striving towards something we can never reach and give up. And that is when “God is dead. God remains dead. And we have killed him."

[Shaibei]

Thank you . It’s not really how I intended it, but maybe useful just to see what doesn’t resonate if nothing else.

The diagram you drew reminds me of Schopenhauer's method. God forbid I do not accuse you of thinking like him. All I am saying is that in his method the will expresses the original unity and ideas the objectification of the will.
It's funny, I just wanted to argue something about the meaning(lessness) of the world in an idealistic method that talks about the necessity of relationships between entities. But then I remembered that, well, not only Spinoza believed that there wasn't any purpose to being. So whether we use "reason" or "will" we see that these two philosophers come to a meaningless world. (This may not be a coincidence, Schopenhauer was to some extent influenced by Spinoza).
To me, even a completely immanent conception of idealism ultimately leads to a "thing in itself" that we are not really able to grasp. We can be amused by statements about what is happening beyond space and time without really grasping what it is. It's good, there's where to strive and a reason to look up. imagination is also important

But it does not remain a reason to strive upwards for very long. Eventually we get tired of striving towards something we can never reach and give up. And that is when “God is dead. God remains dead. And we have killed him."

The way I see things, the reality we take part in is inherently not transparent to us. We cannot undo the fact that as our minds advance and understand reality there is always a new horizon that we have not conquered. Without this fact we would not perceive ourselves as we are. Entities facing a given reality.
From this I understand that faith is an inherent trait of our being. Philosophically "faith" is seen as a weakness, as a source of ignorance. This is the low aspect of faith. Its high aspect, to me, places it as a very strong trait. A trait that increases the ability to overcome and find meaning in life. Of course I am not in favor of a way of life that denies reason. Faith and reason maintain a fertile relationship between them. Faith and imagination delineate the areas that reason has yet to reach

[Shaibei]

And of course, it's a reminder that you're not really God. You are taking part in the life of God
(hence the joke. "God is dead"(Nietzsche, 1983), "Nietzsche is dead"(God, 1900))

[Simon Adams]

The diagram you drew reminds me of Schopenhauer's method. God forbid I do not accuse you of thinking like him. All I am saying is that in his method the will expresses the original unity and ideas the objectification of the will.
It's funny, I just wanted to argue something about the meaning(lessness) of the world in an idealistic method that talks about the necessity of relationships between entities. But then I remembered that, well, not only Spinoza believed that there wasn't any purpose to being. So whether we use "reason" or "will" we see that these two philosophers come to a meaningless world. (This may not be a coincidence, Schopenhauer was to some extent influenced by Spinoza).
To me, even a completely immanent conception of idealism ultimately leads to a "thing in itself" that we are not really able to grasp. We can be amused by statements about what is happening beyond space and time without really grasping what it is. It's good, there's where to strive and a reason to look up. imagination is also important

Yes I think this is really important. There are clearly some great insights from these philosophers, but it often seems like they’re building a house on a river. Amazing houses with strong lines and fine materials, but no foundations.

As you say, imagination is so important. The great discoveries of science always involve hard word, but many scientists work hard, and the ones that really grasp something fundamentally new usually do so through imagination of one kind or another. In maths people talk of something similar. It reminds me of Michelangelo;

The sculpture is already complete within the marble block, before I start my work. It is already there, I just have to chisel away the superfluous material.

The great works of intellect are more an uncovering than a building, and I’m sure this is because our intellect is like a microcosm of the divine ideas that shapes the universe. We are connected directly to the substance of the universe, but the ideas that shape it are just out of reach. I’m not sure what the veil is that stops us connecting to these directly by the intellect, maybe it’s just to much for us to take in, maybe it’s more fundamental. But we have access to the forms they create, and as we are a microcosm of that to which they belong, they are not totally hidden.

To me the kind of pantheist idealism of most of the german idealists is a bit like the “shut up and calculate” attitude towards quantum mechanics. It’s very impressive still, and avoids risking credibility on stuff that can’t be proven, but ultimately you’re left with only superficial meaning that doesn’t relate to the bigger picture. Much like Jordan Peterson in his conversation with Jonathan Pageau, there is a precipice beyond which intellect cannot take you, and only by acknowledging your smallness before the mystery of the creator, and engaging instead with an unequal relationship, can you find the solid ground such that your dim ideas can start to align to the divine ideas.

[AshvinP]

The diagram you drew reminds me of Schopenhauer's method. God forbid I do not accuse you of thinking like him. All I am saying is that in his method the will expresses the original unity and ideas the objectification of the will.
It's funny, I just wanted to argue something about the meaning(lessness) of the world in an idealistic method that talks about the necessity of relationships between entities. But then I remembered that, well, not only Spinoza believed that there wasn't any purpose to being. So whether we use "reason" or "will" we see that these two philosophers come to a meaningless world. (This may not be a coincidence, Schopenhauer was to some extent influenced by Spinoza).
To me, even a completely immanent conception of idealism ultimately leads to a "thing in itself" that we are not really able to grasp. We can be amused by statements about what is happening beyond space and time without really grasping what it is. It's good, there's where to strive and a reason to look up. imagination is also important

But it does not remain a reason to strive upwards for very long. Eventually we get tired of striving towards something we can never reach and give up. And that is when “God is dead. God remains dead. And we have killed him."

The way I see things, the reality we take part in is inherently not transparent to us. We cannot undo the fact that as our minds advance and understand reality there is always a new horizon that we have not conquered. Without this fact we would not perceive ourselves as we are. Entities facing a given reality.
From this I understand that faith is an inherent trait of our being. Philosophically "faith" is seen as a weakness, as a source of ignorance. This is the low aspect of faith. Its high aspect, to me, places it as a very strong trait. A trait that increases the ability to overcome and find meaning in life. Of course I am not in favor of a way of life that denies reason. Faith and reason maintain a fertile relationship between them. Faith and imagination delineate the areas that reason has yet to reach

I agree and equate the "low aspect" of faith as that which attempts to convince us to trust in something we can never experience. The "high aspect" does not promise complete transparency but asks us to trust in something we can at least relate to, just as we can relate to other human beings. And that is only way I can see faith and reason working together in a complementary fashion.

[Simon Adams]

Have you ever read Fides et Ratio?

Faith and reason are like two wings on which the human spirit rises to the contemplation of truth; and God has placed in the human heart a desire to know the truth—in a word, to know himself—so that, by knowing and loving God, men and women may also come to the fullness of truth about themselves

INTRODUCTION - “KNOW YOURSELF”

1. In both East and West, we may trace a journey which has led humanity down the centuries to meet and engage truth more and more deeply. It is a journey which has unfolded—as it must—within the horizon of personal self-consciousness: the more human beings know reality and the world, the more they know themselves in their uniqueness, with the question of the meaning of things and of their very existence becoming ever more pressing. This is why all that is the object of our knowledge becomes a part of our life. The admonition Know yourself was carved on the temple portal at Delphi, as testimony to a basic truth to be adopted as a minimal norm by those who seek to set themselves apart from the rest of creation as “human beings”, that is as those who “know themselves”...

There are many relevant bits, but later it has this;

What is distinctive in the biblical text is the conviction that there is a profound and indissoluble unity between the knowledge of reason and the knowledge of faith. The world and all that happens within it, including history and the fate of peoples, are realities to be observed, analysed and assessed with all the resources of reason, but without faith ever being foreign to the process. Faith intervenes not to abolish reason's autonomy nor to reduce its scope for action, but solely to bring the human being to understand that in these events it is the God of Israel who acts. Thus the world and the events of history cannot be understood in depth without professing faith in the God who is at work in them. Faith sharpens the inner eye, opening the mind to discover in the flux of events the workings of Providence. Here the words of the Book of Proverbs are pertinent: “The human mind plans the way, but the Lord directs the steps” (16:9). This is to say that with the light of reason human beings can know which path to take, but they can follow that path to its end, quickly and unhindered, only if with a rightly tuned spirit they search for it within the horizon of faith. Therefore, reason and faith cannot be separated without diminishing the capacity of men and women to know themselves, the world and God in an appropriate way.

17. There is thus no reason for competition of any kind between reason and faith: each contains the other, and each has its own scope for action. Again the Book of Proverbs points in this direction when it exclaims: “It is the glory of God to conceal things, but the glory of kings is to search things out” (Prov 25:2). In their respective worlds, God and the human being are set within a unique relationship. In God there lies the origin of all things, in him is found the fullness of the mystery, and in this his glory consists; to men and women there falls the task of exploring truth with their reason, and in this their nobility consists. The Psalmist adds one final piece to this mosaic when he says in prayer: “How deep to me are your thoughts, O God! How vast is the sum of them! If I try to count them, they are more than the sand. If I come to the end, I am still with you” (139:17-18). The desire for knowledge is so great and it works in such a way that the human heart, despite its experience of insurmountable limitation, yearns for the infinite riches which lie beyond, knowing that there is to be found the satisfying answer to every question as yet unanswered.

http://www.vatican.va/content/john-paul ... ratio.html

[AshvinP]

Have you ever read Fides et Ratio?

Faith and reason are like two wings on which the human spirit rises to the contemplation of truth; and God has placed in the human heart a desire to know the truth—in a word, to know himself—so that, by knowing and loving God, men and women may also come to the fullness of truth about themselves

INTRODUCTION - “KNOW YOURSELF”

1. In both East and West, we may trace a journey which has led humanity down the centuries to meet and engage truth more and more deeply. It is a journey which has unfolded—as it must—within the horizon of personal self-consciousness: the more human beings know reality and the world, the more they know themselves in their uniqueness, with the question of the meaning of things and of their very existence becoming ever more pressing. This is why all that is the object of our knowledge becomes a part of our life. The admonition Know yourself was carved on the temple portal at Delphi, as testimony to a basic truth to be adopted as a minimal norm by those who seek to set themselves apart from the rest of creation as “human beings”, that is as those who “know themselves”...

There are many relevant bits, but later it has this;

What is distinctive in the biblical text is the conviction that there is a profound and indissoluble unity between the knowledge of reason and the knowledge of faith. The world and all that happens within it, including history and the fate of peoples, are realities to be observed, analysed and assessed with all the resources of reason, but without faith ever being foreign to the process. Faith intervenes not to abolish reason's autonomy nor to reduce its scope for action, but solely to bring the human being to understand that in these events it is the God of Israel who acts. Thus the world and the events of history cannot be understood in depth without professing faith in the God who is at work in them. Faith sharpens the inner eye, opening the mind to discover in the flux of events the workings of Providence. Here the words of the Book of Proverbs are pertinent: “The human mind plans the way, but the Lord directs the steps” (16:9). This is to say that with the light of reason human beings can know which path to take, but they can follow that path to its end, quickly and unhindered, only if with a rightly tuned spirit they search for it within the horizon of faith. Therefore, reason and faith cannot be separated without diminishing the capacity of men and women to know themselves, the world and God in an appropriate way.

17. There is thus no reason for competition of any kind between reason and faith: each contains the other, and each has its own scope for action. Again the Book of Proverbs points in this direction when it exclaims: “It is the glory of God to conceal things, but the glory of kings is to search things out” (Prov 25:2). In their respective worlds, God and the human being are set within a unique relationship. In God there lies the origin of all things, in him is found the fullness of the mystery, and in this his glory consists; to men and women there falls the task of exploring truth with their reason, and in this their nobility consists. The Psalmist adds one final piece to this mosaic when he says in prayer: “How deep to me are your thoughts, O God! How vast is the sum of them! If I try to count them, they are more than the sand. If I come to the end, I am still with you” (139:17-18). The desire for knowledge is so great and it works in such a way that the human heart, despite its experience of insurmountable limitation, yearns for the infinite riches which lie beyond, knowing that there is to be found the satisfying answer to every question as yet unanswered.

http://www.vatican.va/content/john-paul ... ratio.html

Thank you for that. It is an excellent expression of the faith-reason connection, as with so many things Pope JP II wrote. The bolded part is exactly how I would characterize the Christian faith. Ultimately we cannot divorce our noble quest for knowledge from the desire for it to manifest in a manner which satisfies our human spiritual needs. That need is not a function of how absolutely true this or that piece of information is, but rather an expression of what allows us to continue developing and maturing as spiritual beings.