Are you moving away from God or toward God?

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AshvinP
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Re: Are you moving away from God or toward God?

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Stranger wrote: Sun Sep 01, 2024 12:05 pm At 16:10 of the first talk he explains that the process of ascension is essentially the development of consciousness towards the realization of oneness:

Cleric asked a few questions, but I feel that none of them were addressed specifically. I would like to add a related one - how does a soul realize oneness when they have no clue about the reality of the physical-sensory matrix?

Think about it. Kim is walking around every day, observing, thinking about, and interacting with various sensory phenomena. He lives with all of that content in his consciousness, yet he doesn't have any clear sense of the spiritual reality that weaves within and animates it. (I remind that a 'clear sense' is not adding more thoughts about "dualistic hierarchies" etc. to 'explain' the physical world, but intuitive clarity like we have with the very experience of connecting thoughts together). At the same time, he lives with the sense that the physical content is a simulation and there is some spiritual reality beyond it. He has directly experienced something beyond the simulation but, whatever that is, has not elucidated the inner nature of the physical matrix. Isn't that the very essence of dualistic cognitive experience?
"They only can acquire the sacred power of self-intuition, who within themselves can interpret and understand the symbol... those only, who feel in their own spirits the same instinct, which impels the chrysalis of the horned fly to leave room in the involucrum for antennae yet to come."
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Re: Are you moving away from God or toward God?

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AshvinP wrote: Sun Sep 01, 2024 12:53 pm Think about it. Kim is walking around every day, observing, thinking about, and interacting with various sensory phenomena. He lives with all of that content in his consciousness, yet he doesn't have any clear sense of the spiritual reality that weaves within and animates it. (I remind that a 'clear sense' is not adding more thoughts about "dualistic hierarchies" etc. to 'explain' the physical world, but intuitive clarity like we have with the very experience of connecting thoughts together). At the same time, he lives with the sense that the physical content is a simulation and there is some spiritual reality beyond it. He has directly experienced something beyond the simulation but, whatever that is, has not elucidated the inner nature of the physical matrix. Isn't that the very essence of dualistic cognitive experience?
If you listen to his series of talks "How the world works ", he explains how the physical world structures were created (and are being created) as manifestations of the ideations of the creator beings, and so, by the same token, are always weaved with them. The "simulation" is only a label for sensory appearance of the world perceived as something separate and independently existing when the beings within the certain sensory realm are not connected to the creator beings and are not perceiving the ideal content of the spiritual reality on the level of those ascended creator beings.

But it's also worth noting that the fallen beings are also participating in shaping the sensory material realm by the same mechanism - by manifesting their ideal content onto the sensory world. This is the way in which most of the human civilization and its products are constructed under their influence. So, again, the point is that it is not sufficient to just develop higher cognition and to connect to some hierarchy of higher order beings and their ideal content, but it's also a matter of what kind of hierarchy we are connecting with. The hierarchy of fallen beings are mirroring the hierarchy of ascended beings, they do have high cognitive and creative abilities and they do participate in manifesting their ideal content into the physical reality. It would be naive to believe that the fallen beings are always promoting evil and destruction. There are indeed groups of them that are doing that, but those are mostly lower-order fallen beings. But on the contrary, the higher orders of them are aiming for the progress of civilization, for the development towards sophistication of consciousness and culture. But the hallmark of their agenda is that it is fundamentally anti-oneness with the Divine. It is a development, a seeming progress and sophistication on the path away from God. As an example of this, we can look at the modern human liberal civilization which is consistently going further towards cultural, scientific and technological sophistication and development, but further and further away from oneness with God.
"You are not a drop in the ocean, you are the ocean in a drop" Rumi
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Re: Are you moving away from God or toward God?

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Stranger wrote: Sun Sep 01, 2024 2:25 pm
AshvinP wrote: Sun Sep 01, 2024 12:53 pm Think about it. Kim is walking around every day, observing, thinking about, and interacting with various sensory phenomena. He lives with all of that content in his consciousness, yet he doesn't have any clear sense of the spiritual reality that weaves within and animates it. (I remind that a 'clear sense' is not adding more thoughts about "dualistic hierarchies" etc. to 'explain' the physical world, but intuitive clarity like we have with the very experience of connecting thoughts together). At the same time, he lives with the sense that the physical content is a simulation and there is some spiritual reality beyond it. He has directly experienced something beyond the simulation but, whatever that is, has not elucidated the inner nature of the physical matrix. Isn't that the very essence of dualistic cognitive experience?
If you listen to his series of talks "How the world works ", he explains how the physical world structures were created (and are being created) as manifestations of the ideations of the creator beings, and so, by the same token, are always weaved with them. The "simulation" is only a label for sensory appearance of the world perceived as something separate and independently existing when the beings within the certain sensory realm are not connected to the creator beings and are not perceiving the ideal content of the spiritual reality on the level of those ascended creator beings.

But it's also worth noting that the fallen beings are also participating in shaping the sensory material realm by the same mechanism - by manifesting their ideal content onto the sensory world. This is the way in which most of the human civilization and its products are constructed under their influence. So, again, the point is that it is not sufficient to just develop higher cognition and to connect to some hierarchy of higher order beings and their ideal content, but it's also a matter of what kind of hierarchy we are connecting with. The hierarchy of fallen beings are mirroring the hierarchy of ascended beings, they do have high cognitive and creative abilities and they do participate in manifesting their ideal content into the physical reality. It would be naive to believe that the fallen beings are always promoting evil and destruction. There are indeed groups of them that are doing that, but those are mostly lower-order fallen beings. But on the contrary, the higher orders of them are aiming for the progress of civilization, for the development towards sophistication of consciousness and culture. But the hallmark of their agenda is that it is fundamentally anti-oneness with the Divine. It is a development, a seeming progress and sophistication on the path away from God. As an example of this, we can look at the modern human liberal civilization which is consistently going further towards cultural, scientific and technological sophistication and development, but further and further away from oneness with God.

So again we are back to Cleric's observation - "To anyone versed in New Age materials, such a way of speaking is a matter of course. And no one denies that there's value in such expressions if they are understood as Imaginations of the real spiritual processes. However, we practically never see any attempts in such materials to even approach that reality,"

What is the real spiritual process symbolized by "manifesting their ideal content onto the sensory world", or "sending energy" into the physical matrix, etc. Cannot he or you provide some loose characterization of the real-real spiritual process of which these things are imaginative symbols?

As it stands, I'm sure you can see how the characterizations given are in the realm of sci-fi and supernatural fantasy, i.e. how gods, demons, aliens, etc. come from above or from 'other dimensions' and interact with the Earthly world. We get this in many modern movies. Is this the most that Kim can provide us and, if so, why? Are we going to appeal to the 'ineffability' of spiritual reality that can only be known after death?
"They only can acquire the sacred power of self-intuition, who within themselves can interpret and understand the symbol... those only, who feel in their own spirits the same instinct, which impels the chrysalis of the horned fly to leave room in the involucrum for antennae yet to come."
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Re: Are you moving away from God or toward God?

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AshvinP wrote: Sun Sep 01, 2024 3:04 pm So again we are back to Cleric's observation - "To anyone versed in New Age materials, such a way of speaking is a matter of course. And no one denies that there's value in such expressions if they are understood as Imaginations of the real spiritual processes. However, we practically never see any attempts in such materials to even approach that reality,"

What is the real spiritual process symbolized by "manifesting their ideal content onto the sensory world", or "sending energy" into the physical matrix, etc. Cannot he or you provide some loose characterization of the real-real spiritual process of which these things are imaginative symbols?

As it stands, I'm sure you can see how the characterizations given are in the realm of sci-fi and supernatural fantasy, i.e. how gods, demons, aliens, etc. come from above or from 'other dimensions' and interact with the Earthly world. We get this in many modern movies. Is this the most that Kim can provide us and, if so, why? Are we going to appeal to the 'ineffability' of spiritual reality that can only be known after death?
Kim explained it in his first talk on "How the world works". Roughly speaking, the Creator does not create the universe, he creates an energy-like "media" (sort of a "clay") which is malleable and can take any form and which has an inherent manifestation mechanism. It is basically similar to a sandbox for children to make any forms they want according to their creative ideas so that they can materialize and sensorily experience their ideas and all their consequences, and by doing this develop and grow. The way it works is that any conscious being can manifest into existence in this energy-media any of their imaginative or intuitive ideas through exercising their willing ability. However, the lower is the vibration level of a realm, the harder it is to do. But even humans can do it to certain extent in lucid dreaming or OBE states.
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Re: Are you moving away from God or toward God?

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Stranger wrote: Sun Sep 01, 2024 5:10 pm
AshvinP wrote: Sun Sep 01, 2024 3:04 pm So again we are back to Cleric's observation - "To anyone versed in New Age materials, such a way of speaking is a matter of course. And no one denies that there's value in such expressions if they are understood as Imaginations of the real spiritual processes. However, we practically never see any attempts in such materials to even approach that reality,"

What is the real spiritual process symbolized by "manifesting their ideal content onto the sensory world", or "sending energy" into the physical matrix, etc. Cannot he or you provide some loose characterization of the real-real spiritual process of which these things are imaginative symbols?

As it stands, I'm sure you can see how the characterizations given are in the realm of sci-fi and supernatural fantasy, i.e. how gods, demons, aliens, etc. come from above or from 'other dimensions' and interact with the Earthly world. We get this in many modern movies. Is this the most that Kim can provide us and, if so, why? Are we going to appeal to the 'ineffability' of spiritual reality that can only be known after death?
Kim explained it in his first talk on "How the world works". Roughly speaking, the Creator does not create the universe, he creates an energy-like "media" (sort of a "clay") which is malleable and can take any form and which has an inherent manifestation mechanism. It is basically similar to a sandbox for children to make any forms they want according to their creative ideas so that they can materialize and sensorily experience their ideas and all their consequences, and by doing this develop and grow. The way it works is that any conscious being can manifest into existence in this energy-media any of their imaginative or intuitive ideas through exercising their willing ability. However, the lower is the vibration level of a realm, the harder it is to do. But even humans can do it to certain extent in lucid dreaming or OBE states.

In a previous round of discussion, Cleric had posed the following questions:
How would you describe, from the corresponding experiential perspective, what it is to create an animal, say, a bear. What would the Intelligence that is in position to do so, experience? How could we describe the contents of consciousness of such a being? What would that being feel the bear to be in relation to itself?

Lou offered a response but I don't think you did. I was going to try and characterize a hypothetical response for you based on the above post, but I'm really struggling to find a coherent way of expressing it.

Can you take what you stated above and apply it specifically to these questions? It is easy to imagine what you are describing from the outside, because it's basically what we are familiar with from everyday experience, for ex. taking clay substances, employing our will activity, and impressing our creative ideas into the substance to create various desired forms. Maybe certain kinds of clay will be tougher to shape than others, or maybe the bodily instrument of some souls will be less capable of manifesting the creative idea than others.

But what is more difficult to imagine is the inner perspective of what Kim is speaking about. Because higher non-physical beings don't have a bodily instrument like we are familiar with, clay substances, etc. Are you suggesting that they literally work with the same sort of sensory instruments and substances (energy-like media) we are familiar with except they are more subtle, more misty and ephemeral? Perhaps it is like the invisible spectrum of light that they work with to create desired forms? In other words, their inner experience is exactly like ours except more powerful and they don't confuse the substances they work with for some "external world", but rather they swim in this substance and manipulate it as we can do while lucid dreaming.

Is that accurate or how would you modify the above?
"They only can acquire the sacred power of self-intuition, who within themselves can interpret and understand the symbol... those only, who feel in their own spirits the same instinct, which impels the chrysalis of the horned fly to leave room in the involucrum for antennae yet to come."
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Re: Are you moving away from God or toward God?

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AshvinP wrote: Sun Sep 01, 2024 11:55 pm Lou offered a response but I don't think you did. I was going to try and characterize a hypothetical response for you based on the above post, but I'm really struggling to find a coherent way of expressing it.

Can you take what you stated above and apply it specifically to these questions? It is easy to imagine what you are describing from the outside, because it's basically what we are familiar with from everyday experience, for ex. taking clay substances, employing our will activity, and impressing our creative ideas into the substance to create various desired forms. Maybe certain kinds of clay will be tougher to shape than others, or maybe the bodily instrument of some souls will be less capable of manifesting the creative idea than others.

But what is more difficult to imagine is the inner perspective of what Kim is speaking about. Because higher non-physical beings don't have a bodily instrument like we are familiar with, clay substances, etc. Are you suggesting that they literally work with the same sort of sensory instruments and substances (energy-like media) we are familiar with except they are more subtle, more misty and ephemeral? Perhaps it is like the invisible spectrum of light that they work with to create desired forms? In other words, their inner experience is exactly like ours except more powerful and they don't confuse the substances they work with for some "external world", but rather they swim in this substance and manipulate it as we can do while lucid dreaming.

Is that accurate or how would you modify the above?
The "clay" was rather a metaphoric analogy. I'm idealist and I do not believe that any kind of "matter" or "energy" actually exists anywhere. IMO all reality is purely mental. This is because all we ever experience, even in our sensory experiences, are only mental phenomena that only feel like "matter", we can never experience any "matter" or "energy" directly, so in fact all we can think or know about "matter" or "energy" are only abstract mental ideas. So, I don't fully agree with Kim that the Source created the "matter-energy" kind of malleable substance. I think It created the manifestation mechanism. NDE experiencer Nanci Danison explains it quite well here:
What is the Spiritual Power to Manifest Reality?
Anyone who has enough experience with lucid dreaming or OBE should also be familiar with it. It is somewhat similar to the interplay of intuitive and imaginative cognition: we can have an intuitive idea (say, of a sphere), and then apply our willing intention to imagine it, and then boom - an imagination of a sphere appears in the space of our imagination. With the sensory manifestation the process is very similar, but in this case we would get a sensory appearance of a sphere instead of imaginative one.
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Re: Are you moving away from God or toward God?

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Stranger wrote: Mon Sep 02, 2024 1:31 am
AshvinP wrote: Sun Sep 01, 2024 11:55 pm Lou offered a response but I don't think you did. I was going to try and characterize a hypothetical response for you based on the above post, but I'm really struggling to find a coherent way of expressing it.

Can you take what you stated above and apply it specifically to these questions? It is easy to imagine what you are describing from the outside, because it's basically what we are familiar with from everyday experience, for ex. taking clay substances, employing our will activity, and impressing our creative ideas into the substance to create various desired forms. Maybe certain kinds of clay will be tougher to shape than others, or maybe the bodily instrument of some souls will be less capable of manifesting the creative idea than others.

But what is more difficult to imagine is the inner perspective of what Kim is speaking about. Because higher non-physical beings don't have a bodily instrument like we are familiar with, clay substances, etc. Are you suggesting that they literally work with the same sort of sensory instruments and substances (energy-like media) we are familiar with except they are more subtle, more misty and ephemeral? Perhaps it is like the invisible spectrum of light that they work with to create desired forms? In other words, their inner experience is exactly like ours except more powerful and they don't confuse the substances they work with for some "external world", but rather they swim in this substance and manipulate it as we can do while lucid dreaming.

Is that accurate or how would you modify the above?
The "clay" was rather a metaphoric analogy. I'm idealist and I do not believe that any kind of "matter" or "energy" actually exists anywhere. IMO all reality is purely mental. This is because all we ever experience, even in our sensory experiences, are only mental phenomena that only feel like "matter", we can never experience any "matter" or "energy" directly, so in fact all we can think or know about "matter" or "energy" are only abstract mental ideas. So, I don't fully agree with Kim that the Source created the "matter-energy" kind of malleable substance. I think It created the manifestation mechanism. NDE experiencer Nanci Danison explains it quite well here:
What is the Spiritual Power to Manifest Reality?
Anyone who has enough experience with lucid dreaming or OBE should also be familiar with it. It is somewhat similar to the interplay of intuitive and imaginative cognition: we can have an intuitive idea (say, of a sphere), and then apply our willing intention to imagine it, and then boom - an imagination of a sphere appears in the space of our imagination. With the sensory manifestation the process is very similar, but in this case we would get a sensory appearance of a sphere instead of imaginative one.

Ok, that's clear enough, thanks.

I think we can at least maybe try to agree that there are two distinct views here. One is what you have outlined above (including the links, which I have visited and contemplated). The other is what spiritual science claims to have discerned through what is known as Intuitive, Inspired, and Imaginative cognition. Can we at least agree that Steiner is trying to draw attention to something entirely different with respect to "manifestation" by spiritual beings in the quote below?

Although still only in small circles, this general presupposition of the spiritual content of the world is made rather frequently. Even those who speak of the spirit in objects, however, usually remain with speaking about the spirit in general, i.e., they speak about the existence of spiritual weaving, of spiritual life lying at the basis of the mineral, plant, and animal realms, etc. To enter into the means by which the spirit individualizes itself for us, how it manifests itself particularly in this or that form of existence, is not yet given much thought in the wider circles of our educated contemporaries. Offense is usually taken to those who speak not only of the spirit generally but of its particular forms, its particular ways, how it makes itself felt behind this or that phenomenon. Nevertheless, in our spiritual science, we should not speak about the spirit in the vague and general way indicated today; rather, we should speak in such a way that we recognize how the spirit weaves behind the mineral or plant existence, how it is active in the animal and human existence. Our task today is to say something about the nature of the spirit in the realm of plants.
...
Especially in this contemplation, which is to concern itself with the spirit that finds its expression, its physiognomy, as it were, in the realm confronting us in the gigantic trees of the primeval forest, or those growing on Teneriffa thousands of years ago, as well as in the small, unassuming violet hiding in the quiet woods or elsewhere—especially in such a contemplation a person may feel himself in a rather difficult position, if the natural scientific concepts of the nineteenth century have been absorbed [for ex. particles, energy, forces, etc. creating and acting on objects). Yes, a person feels himself in a rather difficult position if he has worked through to what should be said about the spirit in this area, for how could it be denied that great and wonderful discoveries in the realm of material research—even in the realm of the nature of plants—were made in the nineteenth century, thoroughly illuminating the nature of plants from a certain standpoint.
...
Curiously enough, the spiritual investigator becomes aware that it is generally impossible to consider the world of plants, this wonderful covering of the earth, as something existing by itself. When confronted with the plant he feels just as he does regarding a finger, which he can consider only as belonging to a complete human organism. The plant world cannot be considered in isolation, because to the view of the spiritual investigator the plant world at once relates itself to the entire planet earth and forms a whole with the earth, just as the finger or piece of bone or the brain forms a whole with our organism. And whoever merely looks at plants by themselves, remaining with the particular, does the same as one who wishes to explain a hand or a piece of human bone by itself. The common nature of plants simply cannot be considered in any other way than as a member of our common planet earth.

Here, however, we come to a matter that may annoy many today, though it is valid nevertheless for the spiritual scientific view. We come to look differently at our whole planet earth than is done customarily by today's science, for our contemporary science—be it astronomy, geology, or mineralogy—basically speaks about the earth only in so far as this earthly sphere consists of rocks, of the mineral element, of lifeless matter. Spiritual science may not speak in this way. It can only speak in such a way that everything found on our earth—that which a being coming from outer space, as it were, would find in human beings, animals, plants, and stones—belongs to the whole of our earth, just as the stones themselves belong to our earth. This means that we may not look at the earth planet as a dead rock formation but rather as something that is in itself a living whole, bringing forth the nature of plants out of itself, just as the human being brings forth the structures of his skin, of his sense organs, and the like. In other words, we may not consider the earth without the plant covering that belongs to it.
...
Now, if we are able to consider this earth organism from a spiritual scientific viewpoint, we can go still further. Today I can give only the first outlines of this, because this is a cycle of lectures in which one thing must lead to the next. We can ask ourselves, what is the situation with the earth organism as such?

In studying an organism we know that alternations of different conditions are revealed. The human and animal organisms reveal a waking and a sleeping condition alternating in time. Can we, from a spiritual scientific viewpoint, find something similar regarding the body of the earth, the earth organism? To outer consideration, what follows may appear to be a mere comparison, but for spiritual research it is not a comparison but a fact. If we study the curious lawfulness of summer and winter, how it is summer on one half of the earth and winter on the other half, how this relationship alternates, and if we pay attention to how this lawfulness—as wintertime and summertime—is to be discerned in relation to all earthly life, then it will no longer appear absurd if spiritual science tells us that winter and summer in the earth organism correspond to waking and sleeping in the organisms around us. It is simply that the earth does not sleep in time in the same way as other organisms but is always awake somewhere and always asleep at some other portion of its being. Waking and sleeping move around spatially: the earth sleeps in the part where there is summer, and it is awake in the part of its being where there is winter. Thus the whole earth organism confronts us spiritually with conditions like waking and sleeping in other organisms.
...
What, then, are the plants in this whole web of existence? We could say that when spring approaches, the earth organ ism begins to think and to feel, because the sun with its being lures out the thoughts and feelings. The plants are nothing but a kind of sense organ for the earth organism, awakening anew every spring, so that the earth organism with its thinking and feeling can be in the realm of the sun activity. Just as in the human organism light creates the eye for itself in order to be able to manifest through the eye as ‘light,’ so every spring the sun organism creates for itself the plant covering in order to look at itself, to feel, to sense, to think by means of this plant covering. The plants cannot directly be considered the thoughts of the earth, but they are the organs through which the awakening organization of the earth in spring, together with the sun, develops its thoughts and feelings. Just as we can see our nerves emanating from the brain, developing our feeling and conceptual life through the eyes and ears together with the nerves, so the spiritual investigator sees in what transpires between earth and sun with the help of the plants the marvelous weaving of a cosmic world of thoughts, feelings, and sensations. The spiritual investigator finds that the earth is surrounded not merely by the mineral air of the earth, by the purely physical earth atmosphere, but by an aura of thoughts and feelings. For spiritual research the earth is a spiritual being whose thoughts and feelings awaken every spring, and throughout the summer they pass through the soul of our entire earth.

It's fine if you feel the above might be some kind of deception by fallen beings that create all sorts of details to confuse us (I am not saying you do or don't feel that way, but just that we can leave it aside in case you do). I am only pointing attention to the fact that there is a fundamental difference between the understanding of how phenomena like plants, for ex., are manifested. The difference is not even so much at the content level, although that is present too, but in the whole manner of thinking through the issue.

We can first notice that the above is only a tiny excerpt from a larger lecture which, in turn, is part of a broader series of lectures. So that already suggests the method of understanding the "manifestation" of Earthly phenomena is quite different. And, moreover, the content of the lectures does not really "explain" the way Earthly phenomena are manifested by higher beings. It is rather pointing to a general direction of imagination and intuition that can help us inwardly resonate with the inner life of those higher beings if we persist with our efforts for many years. It is helping us decondition from the "natural scientific concepts of the nineteenth century" that we will often carry over into the spiritual realm. Even if we conceive the forces and energies as being 'made of' mental substance, we are still moving our thinking through those familiar etched pathways of 19th-century science.

We can also notice how it invites us to take a more holistic perspective, where the inner TFW rhythms of all beings are overlapping and superimposed, modulating each other in complex ways. Every single phenomenon needs to be traced into these wider and wider spheres of inner rhythms to properly orient to how they came into existence. There are no isolated plant beings, animal beings, human beings, angelic beings, etc. all trying to manifest their desired forms independently out of the common energy-like media, with different vibrational capacities, thereby resulting in the realm of Earthly phenomena we are familiar with. Again that is a carryover from 19th century habits of thinking conditioned to ordinary sensory experience.

Much more could be said here, but I am simply trying to draw attention that there is a significant difference between Kim et al. and the methods/results of spiritual scientific investigation into how the current Earthly situation comes about. Can we agree on the existence of that difference?
"They only can acquire the sacred power of self-intuition, who within themselves can interpret and understand the symbol... those only, who feel in their own spirits the same instinct, which impels the chrysalis of the horned fly to leave room in the involucrum for antennae yet to come."
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Re: Are you moving away from God or toward God?

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Stranger wrote: Sun Sep 01, 2024 12:05 pm There is no question that we can and should develop our cognition while in the physical form and attain to higher levels of cognition. However, that by itself is not sufficient. It is not only the level of cognition that determines whether a being moves toward God or away from God, but it is also whether the development is moving toward the realization of oneness or away from it into the dualistic state of consciousness. Note that in the dualistic state the cognition can also be highly developed and sophisticated and integrated into a hierarchical structure of (fallen) spiritual beings.
OK. Stated like this, I think we can safely say that the way you use 'oneness' here, is identical to what we often refer to as the 'high ideal'. In other words, it's about our inner self-determination which is an absolutely free act (that is, creation out of nothing, it can't be seen as caused by something else) and we must affirm it at every instant (that is, it's not something that we put in place once and then we can leave it to manage our flow from the background).
Stranger wrote: Mon Sep 02, 2024 1:31 am Anyone who has enough experience with lucid dreaming or OBE should also be familiar with it. It is somewhat similar to the interplay of intuitive and imaginative cognition: we can have an intuitive idea (say, of a sphere), and then apply our willing intention to imagine it, and then boom - an imagination of a sphere appears in the space of our imagination. With the sensory manifestation the process is very similar, but in this case we would get a sensory appearance of a sphere instead of imaginative one.
Here I actually wrote a much more expanded response with more context but in the end I was worried that seeing so much text will make the reader simply skim over in frustration. I'll try now to be more direct even if it turns out less clear.

In short, the described Creation process holds a very dangerous lure. Even though we are aware that these descriptions are simplified and not to be taken literally, they still make it such that the intellect inflates into Cosmic proportions.

When we imagine that the Divine creates the World in the described by KM way, we habitually translate our mode of consciousness to the Cosmic. More concretely, we imagine that the Divine premeditates the World, he develops the idea of the World into a Cosmic mental picture and then impresses it into the matter-light. This description is very convenient because it is really a description of what our inner process looks like (thus we need not develop any new skills). For example, in a lucid dream or a OOB we still feel that we have this premeditative space where we can develop certain mental images and then impress them into the dream environment.

If we cling to this view, however, we stumble on something very peculiar when we try to investigate how the mental images themselves are summoned. We are tempted to again translate the whole process and we are led to the idea that we pre-premeditate our thoughts, and boom - we have a mental image. By the same logic, however, we'll have to imagine pre-pre-premeditative activity two booms away from the mental image, and so on. This, of course, doesn't stand to the facts of experience. We can't find such a pre-premeditative process. All we have is dim weaving in intuitive movements which gets impressed in mental images receding as memory (what I tried to illustrate in the video feedback exercise). There's simply no such pre-premeditative space where we design our thoughts with pre-thinking and only then decide to let them become normal thoughts. (anywhere I use the term 'intuitive movements' obviously I don't imply some externally observed movements but rather the unseen inner activity that we can approach by asking: "What do I innerly do in order to think? (or simply add two numbers)")

This lack of premeditative space is beautifully expressed in the first pages of Genesis, where it is described how the Elohim first created the World and then saw it was good. We have given this example many times (it's also in the first pages of PoF). The Elohim do not have premeditative space where they build mental pictures of the World. They don't build an inner vision of the yet non-existent World, then condense that vision in denser spiritual substance and say "It is good - the impression looks just as good as we first imagined it." Instead, the World matrix takes form out of their invisible intuitive movements. It is the same in our thinking process. We can't premeditate what we're gonna think and only then think it. Such a premeditation would already be thinking that raises the same question about itself. This is why we have always insisted that in meditation we should move toward the experience of the pure thinking flow - in this process, although in miniature, we experience most closely the primal creative process.

Why is this important? Because this premeditative space - as something seemingly loosened from the World flow, in which we weave mental images - is something very specific to our human condition. This premeditative space is really the space in which the intellectual self finds its be-ing. Even the next higher/more primal stage of consciousness (Angelic) no longer has such ability. The result is that by thus extrapolating our human condition to the Divine, we give the intellectual self the false sense that the Divine operates in principally the same way - premeditates in the Divine Intellect and condenses the idea into the matter-light field. This attitude becomes a severe obstacle because it takes this premeditative sphere in which the intellectual self's existence is based, as something fundamental. The intellect says "I have it, the Divine has it. It's an attribute of pure consciousness, this is how it works." However, it is precisely this premeditative intellectual space that we must sacrifice in meditation if we are to know more intimately the Divine creative process. We sacrifice the space with its specific constraints and ingrained habits, not what flows into it and animates it.

I am sure that if you invoke your scientific scrutiny, you'll agree. It sounds too 'set up' that pure consciousness should be fundamentally constituted such that it has a sphere for premeditation of mental images which are later impressed into the matter-light (not to mention that this raises additional questions about the nature of this matter-light). Doesn't it feel more intuitively right that the primordial existence should have been simpler, more parsimonious, elegant? In science we have the concept of generations. For example, we have the generations of stars, where the first could have been made only of helium and then some heavier elements were formed, the next generations could fuse even heavier elements, etc. Doesn't it make sense that a consciousness that is differentiated into a premeditative sphere and an outer sphere should be a later generation?

KM says how the Creator forms in his mind an image of what kind of world he wants to create and then goes on with its realization. Now you may say that I'm nitpicking, that these are simplified descriptions and shouldn't be taken too literally. But that is exactly the point - it makes a world of difference in what way we simplify things. If we provide the convenient picture of a Cosmic Intellect that premeditates in mental images and then creates the world, this is the sweetest lure for our intellect. The latter gladly takes the lure in one gulp and inflates to Cosmic proportions. Now it says "Of course, these are simplifications. But the principles are more or less like this. It's only the scale that differs. From this moment on, my geometry is more or less set. It only remains to find within myself the Divine mental images that have been used to create the World." This however completely conflates a later generation consciousness with the primal creative. We can only approach this primal state in the experience of precipitation of pure mental images, as testimonies of invisible intuitive movements. We can't see whether our thoughts are good or bad until we think them. Then they serve as feedback on how to invisibly will our intuitive movements differently, which results in new receding images and so on. It is here that the high ideal plays - our yearning for Love, Wisdom, and Truth.

The main idea to be extracted from all this is that if we really want to approach the primal reality, we need to concentrate on the process of intuitive movements manifesting into perceptible thought images. Here one can object "but this is only part of the story, focusing entirely on premeditation of thoughts loses from sight the outer sphere where the thoughts need to be impressed. We need a more balanced striving for a higher unity where the thinking sphere is only a part of the whole." Yet this takes the differentiation in premeditative and outer spheres for a fundamental feature of the Essential Being. Isn't it logical that the primal act of the Divine Spirit should be something akin to intuitive will projecting as inner Cosmic Phenomena (not that there's 'outer' but just to make sure the perspective is grasped correctly)? In our limited and manifold condition, isn't it projecting ideal movements into thought images, that seems most identical to this primal activity of the Spirit? If the Intuitive Spirit doesn't project the phenomenal content of the inner Cosmos as something akin to a thought projection, then what's the creative activity like? God uses his mind to think images of the World and then uses his hands and will to create it? And such God with already differentiated mind and body should be conceived as the primal principle of existence? I believe that anyone who has at least some sense for the fundamental Unity that all science, philosophy, art, and religion have been seeking to express, would be deeply dissatisfied with any such view that begins with something so complex at its foundations.

To put that in a simple picture, we can imagine that the Divine thinks the sound 'aaa' continuously and fills the inner Cosmos with it. We should picture that from the first-person perspective. This is not premediation. There's no mental pre-sound and manifested-out-loud world sound. There's only one kind of sound that fills the inner Cosmos as a result of the invisible intuitive will of the Divine. So, it is as if in the experience of this receding as memory sound, the Divine recognizes its existence. The Divine doesn't think by juggling mental images, doesn't philosophize, but his Cosmic consciousness is imbued with the pure meaning which if it could be expressed in words could be something like "This sound is an image of (it reflects) my willful intent". Now another more limited perspective concentric with the Divine (remember, there's only One Consciousness) also moves intuitively. It moves in such a way, however, that it interferes and modulates the intuitive movements of the Divine with its own, and as a result a wobbling 'aAaAa' sound is experienced. This lesser being doesn't recognize itself to be the producer of the fundamental 'a' sound but recognizes its activity within the wobbles. If it could express its intuition it might say "I'm not responsible for the resounding 'a' but I can surely recognize how I wobble it. My intuitive intents are perfectly reflected in that wobble. The fundamental sound is a reflection of the intuitive activity of a greater Being in which I'm embedded. I only modulate this activity with my own and the result is experienced in the wobble." Conversely, we can say that the Divine also recognizes the presence of the wobble in its own sound production. In a sense, the Divine has sacrificed the perfect control over the sound and allowed unknown intuitive movements to wobble it. These movements can eventually reach coherent self-reflection (self-consciousness) within the wobbles they dimly produce through their dreamy intuitive intents.

Now on the surface, one may say that the above is just a different way of conveying what also KM says. The thing however is not so much in the words chosen for the description but how this description urges us to place ourselves differently in the World Process. We can immediately sense how the above description alleviates a great burden from our shoulders - we don't even need to speak about a created world as some object within Cosmic consciousness. This burden is inherited simply due to the fact that the intellectual consciousness, by virtue of its own existence, grasps reality as inner activity in premeditative space of mental images, and impressions in the denser matter-light spiritual stratum. This stratum already feels as a 'thing', it has been created as some 'object' (Cosmic wax) and now to understand that, the intellect needs to find the mental images (seals) at the scale of the Divine Mind that have been impressed in the amorphous wax to give it its present form. In any case, there's a clear distinction between objectively created denser spiritual machinery (the World, the simulator, etc.) and the less dense Divine Mind that has premeditated the machine in Cosmic mental images.

Contrast this with the above picture. Notice how there's really no created world that exists as some 'object' independent of the Divine premeditations. All there is is the continuous resounding of Cosmic phenomena, continually thought into existence and immediately fading as memory. The World is really this real-time resounding - cross-modulated by the most varied intuitive intents. The lawfulness of the World is not contained in its objective mechanism but in the smoothly varying phase-relations of the resounding intuitive intents. There's no separate real world and some simulated world existing as an object inside the Cosmic container. There's One resounding phenomenal sphere of experience, that can be experienced from infinite constellations of specific phase-relations, as long as intuitive activity is able to find there a coherent self-reflection. The intellectual self is itself such a perspective. It is not placed in some simulated world away from the real one. It's only a vantage point within the Cosmic sound, portraying a very complicated interference of intuitive intents, where the spirit knows itself in wobbly modulations that it calls thoughts. There are other wobbles of the most varied scales that the intellect doesn't feel responsible for. They feel as a more inert corporeal and Cosmic environment. It is this condition that the intellect erroneously projects back onto the Divine. The intellect turns things upside down by saying "The Divine is similar to me. It weaves in mental wobbles and these wobbles create the Cosmic sound." But this is completely inverted! This is not true even in a lucid dream - we can't say that our thoughts create the raw colors of the dreamscape. We still only modulate it. We create a hard problem for ourselves when we fantasize that our wobbles create out of themselves the raw phenomena that is being wobbled! And we further project this onto the Divine. The Divine is wobbling in premeditative Cosmic mental images and then somehow produces from them a created world that is no longer a mental image. All of these illogisms result from the simple inversion that the intellect has promulgated because it secretly desires to immortalize its later generation existence.

This is not to abominate the intellect. It is perfectly in place. It is only that we need to see its images as modulation produced by our inner intuitive activity, through the feedback of which we seek to get a grip on the complicated ideal phase-relations. The fundamental activity, however, manifesting in thought images is essentially the same as the Divine that manifests in the Cosmic sound. It's only that at our level of coherence the vibrations of our intuitive activity only modulate the resounding flow, while the vibrations of the Divine activity seem to us like producing the raw phenomena that we modulate. The most critical thing to recognize is that we don't modulate the already manifested phenomena. Everything that we perceive is already in the process of fading as memory. What we modulate is the collective intuitive movements (and conversely, they modulate ours). Think of a clay pot on a turntable. The World is not the pot. What we perceive is only a momentary image of the World process. The Divine intuitive activity is as if defining the main movement of a hand that shapes the picture of the clay. Lesser activities nudge that hand and thus produce modulations in the resounding image. The lesser beings say "I'm not responsible for the general picture of the clay but I can recognize my activity in those wobbly shapes that I have contributed by nudging the hand. Yet I repeat - the image of the pot is not some objective world that is being shaped. Our phenomenal world is only the volumetric image of a collective Cosmic thought process. What is real is the interference of intuitive intents, that slowly morph their phase-relations - every being contributing their modulations according to their high ideal.

Even though I intended to write a short response, I see that it again approached, if not surpassed, the size of the scrapped one :D It seems I'm unable to do that in less words. I'm tempted to continue but I'll force myself to stop. I hope that something of value can be extracted.
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Re: Are you moving away from God or toward God?

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AshvinP wrote: Mon Sep 02, 2024 3:51 pm Much more could be said here, but I am simply trying to draw attention that there is a significant difference between Kim et al. and the methods/results of spiritual scientific investigation into how the current Earthly situation comes about. Can we agree on the existence of that difference?
Well, I see you point and can see the difference. KM did not go to such elaboration but I can see where these approaches could be reconciled. KM mentioned that the world creation was a result of synergetic and collaborative manifestation of ascended beings. So, if we would further elaborate on that, we could arrive at "a more holistic perspective, where the inner TFW rhythms of all beings are overlapping and superimposed, modulating each other in complex ways." However, I think the picture is even more complicated because there are also fallen beings acting and manifesting against the collaborative manifestation of the Divine and the ascended beings, and there are also a multitude of beings in indeterminate stats like us that think, act and manifest partly in collaboration with the Divine and partly not in collaboration when driven by our own egoic motives that are not coherent with the Divine Will.
"You are not a drop in the ocean, you are the ocean in a drop" Rumi
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Re: Are you moving away from God or toward God?

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Cleric K wrote: Mon Sep 02, 2024 9:58 pm This is not to abominate the intellect. It is perfectly in place. It is only that we need to see its images as modulation produced by our inner intuitive activity, through the feedback of which we seek to get a grip on the complicated ideal phase-relations. The fundamental activity, however, manifesting in thought images is essentially the same as the Divine that manifests in the Cosmic sound. It's only that at our level of coherence the vibrations of our intuitive activity only modulate the resounding flow, while the vibrations of the Divine activity seem to us like producing the raw phenomena that we modulate. The most critical thing to recognize is that we don't modulate the already manifested phenomena. Everything that we perceive is already in the process of fading as memory. What we modulate is the collective intuitive movements (and conversely, they modulate ours). Think of a clay pot on a turntable. The World is not the pot. What we perceive is only a momentary image of the World process. The Divine intuitive activity is as if defining the main movement of a hand that shapes the picture of the clay. Lesser activities nudge that hand and thus produce modulations in the resounding image. The lesser beings say "I'm not responsible for the general picture of the clay but I can recognize my activity in those wobbly shapes that I have contributed by nudging the hand. Yet I repeat - the image of the pot is not some objective world that is being shaped. Our phenomenal world is only the volumetric image of a collective Cosmic thought process. What is real is the interference of intuitive intents, that slowly morph their phase-relations - every being contributing their modulations according to their high ideal.

Even though I intended to write a short response, I see that it again approached, if not surpassed, the size of the scrapped one :D It seems I'm unable to do that in less words. I'm tempted to continue but I'll force myself to stop. I hope that something of value can be extracted.
Cleric, thanks for interesting insights. I agree that " What is real is the interference of intuitive intents, that slowly morph their phase-relations - every being contributing their modulations according to their high ideal." However, I'm still not convinced that there is no pre-meditation phase in the process of the Divine creation. First of all, I do not know the right answer, I don't remember being there when the Divine created the first "sound" and the ascended beings (Elohim) modulated it to form the mainframe of the Cosmos, so I can only speculate and consider different views here. I agree that when we try to describe the Divine, we usually just extrapolate our inner experience of how our own consciousness works. And according to our experience, in some cases, we skip the premeditation phase and act immediately, but in some other cases, we do have pre-meditation phase when we first consider alternative options and then make a choice for only one specific course of action out of all alternative options. So, it seems to me that when a number of alternatives of action exist, there is a pre-meditative phase in order to make a decision on which alternative to choose before manifesting it. Since the number of different variants of possible world manifestations is infinite, the Divine Monad and the Elohim would need to premeditate on all of them and then decide on the only one that is the best option out of all others. But we can also argue that this selection does not have to be a distinct phase and can happen simultaneously with manifestation just the way you described. As an analogy, it would be similar to the path integral formulation of classical or quantum mechanics where all possible paths exist simultaneously, but the result of their accumulative interference forms the actual path of a system.
"You are not a drop in the ocean, you are the ocean in a drop" Rumi
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