Anthroposophy as Fascio

[Stranger]

I have no interest in the "hows" of the dualistic state of being, be it a state of consciousness or of material structures.

Not all material structures are dualistic, only those that were created in dualistic state for the purposes of dualistic realm. For example, by far most of the material structures that humans created within their civilization are dualistic. But if you noticed, if the only thing people try to do is to prove me wrong without trying to understand what I'm actually trying to convey, then I stop responding, because it's not a productive way of making dialogues.

[Federica]

We indeed need to connect to higher order beings but only of the Divine hierarchy, and the key sign that you are connecting to the Divine hierarchy is that they immediately start helping you to connect directly to your Divine nature and realize the gnosis of Oneness.

when we communicate with discarnate beings, there is a key criterion to discern which hierarchy they belong to. I know this for a fact because I communicated with a Divine spiritual being

*******

we are NOT nested within higher order beings and they are NOT nested in us. We all are DIRECT and SOVEREIGN individuations of the same Source. The Source is our most inner core, most inner Self, and there is no nested hierarchy of beings whatsoever between our soul structure and our core Self which is the Source. This is the core of all nonduality teachings. We do not need any intermediaries to connect to the Source

[Stranger]

We indeed need to connect to higher order beings but only of the Divine hierarchy, and the key sign that you are connecting to the Divine hierarchy is that they immediately start helping you to connect directly to your Divine nature and realize the gnosis of Oneness.

when we communicate with discarnate beings, there is a key criterion to discern which hierarchy they belong to. I know this for a fact because I communicated with a Divine spiritual being

*******

we are NOT nested within higher order beings and they are NOT nested in us. We all are DIRECT and SOVEREIGN individuations of the same Source. The Source is our most inner core, most inner Self, and there is no nested hierarchy of beings whatsoever between our soul structure and our core Self which is the Source. This is the core of all nonduality teachings. We do not need any intermediaries to connect to the Source

There are hierarchies but they are not nested.

[Federica]

We indeed need to connect to higher order beings but only of the Divine hierarchy, and the key sign that you are connecting to the Divine hierarchy is that they immediately start helping you to connect directly to your Divine nature and realize the gnosis of Oneness.

when we communicate with discarnate beings, there is a key criterion to discern which hierarchy they belong to. I know this for a fact because I communicated with a Divine spiritual being

*******

we are NOT nested within higher order beings and they are NOT nested in us. We all are DIRECT and SOVEREIGN individuations of the same Source. The Source is our most inner core, most inner Self, and there is no nested hierarchy of beings whatsoever between our soul structure and our core Self which is the Source. This is the core of all nonduality teachings. We do not need any intermediaries to connect to the Source

There are hierarchies but they are not nested.

Ok. Let's see where your intellect is going to carry you, now that you have to figure out a way to explain what a non nested hierarchy is.

When we think about the Time rhythms entirely with intellectual concepts, it's like we're trying to build a picture of Lego blocks. It's tempting to imagine that the more of these pieces that we stack, the more comprehensive and complete the picture will become. But as we do that, we quickly become crushed by the weight of our own concepts. It is well known that our working memory can hold only about seven discrete things at a time.

[Lou Gold]

There are hierarchies but they are not nested.

Seems a bit like my logo, Eugene. Perhaps the hierarchies are commonly rooted or sourced rather than nested as would be required by an ascent bias.

[Stranger]

Seems a bit like my logo, Eugene. Perhaps the hierarchies are commonly rooted or sourced rather than nested as would be required by an ascent bias.

Exactly, commonly rooted.

[Federica]

Seems a bit like my logo, Eugene. Perhaps the hierarchies are commonly rooted or sourced rather than nested as would be required by an ascent bias.

Exactly, commonly rooted.

"Commonly rooted hierarchies" you say?
Interesting. Now tell me about each one of these "commonly rooted hierarchies". How does each hierarchy work? What makes it a hierarchy?

[AshvinP]

There are hierarchies but they are not nested.

Seems a bit like my logo, Eugene. Perhaps the hierarchies are commonly rooted or sourced rather than nested as would be required by an ascent bias.

I think we should be clear what "nested" means. If there is no nesting in the sense we are using it, then there is no monism, only separate bubbles of consciousness stacked beside each other, or on top of each other, or otherwise interacting through packets of information traversing some impossible 'space' between them. Nested basically means that the highest members of our current body-soul-spirit constitution are the lowest members of other beings. Just as our spirit incarnated into a dense body as its lowest member, higher-order spirits incarnate into our soul-bodies or our spirit as their lowest members. Our soul and spirit is their 'body'. Nowhere is there any impossible 'space' existing between conscious agents. What this means in less abstract, more practical terms was given here in great detail by Cleric.

viewtopic.php?p=17123#p17123

That's how it is possible for SS to speak about the past and the future. On a higher level it becomes evident that the states of Earthly life funnel in certain direction. We make plans based on our limited perspective but at the same time the macro-structure of the dream narrows down in certain direction and ultimately we're forced to manifest our states from within that potential. The points of conception and death are two poles within which our states funnel. This is quite self-evident also in the case of planetary motion for example. We may wish that our next state can be anywhere in Cosmic space but in reality all our states of being are narrowed down within a palette which is consistent with the perceptual content of the Earthly planetary environment.

This may seem fantastic but in reality this is what planetary motions really are. What we see with our eyes is only the crystalized manifestation of states. From higher order perspective, the gods don't see a planet moving into some orbit. Instead, their activity shapes the potential curvature which is hierarchically being narrowed down. From the perspective of the gods, their activity is also experienced as becoming, as manifestation of potential. This is very well illustrated in Genesis where it's said "And Elohim said, “Let light come to be,” and light came to be. And Elohim saw the light, that it was good." These are very deep things and they speak directly of this horizon of manifestation. So even the Elohim manifest their activity from within unseen potential and only as it crosses the horizon becomes perceptible. The difference is that for the higher beings, what they manifest is the 'shape' of potential which can be further narrowed down. In this sense, the Light that the Elohim create is not simply photons travelling in space through time.

We can imagine it in a simplified way thus. Imagine that you take the 'frames' of inner life from a whole year of your life and superimpose them one over the other. All colors, sounds, thoughts, feelings - everything is superimposed and builds a superposition, similar to white light. Yet this superposition is not absolute white light. There are many more states that are missing. For example, there are no states in this superposition which correspond to the inner experience of beholding the Mars environment. So it's structured potential. Imagine that (I repeat that this is oversimplification) the Elohim thinks the superposition of states of being which correspond to one year of time. The Elohim sees these superimposed states from the same first-person perspective, just like we do. This superposition is structured such that it contains all possible (first-person) states of being that humans can go through within a year time. Through the narrowing down of this potential, many relative perspectives become possible which are consistent with each other. From within this narrowed potential, the Elohim's activity is experienced in its time-decohered form.

[Lou Gold]

There are hierarchies but they are not nested.

Seems a bit like my logo, Eugene. Perhaps the hierarchies are commonly rooted or sourced rather than nested as would be required by an ascent bias.

I think we should be clear what "nested" means. If there is no nesting in the sense we are using it, then there is no monism, only separate bubbles of consciousness stacked beside each other, or on top of each other, or otherwise interacting through packets of information traversing some impossible 'space' between them. Nested basically means that the highest members of our current body-soul-spirit constitution are the lowest members of other beings. Just as our spirit incarnated into a dense body as its lowest member, higher-order spirits incarnate into our soul-bodies or our spirit as their lowest members. Our soul and spirit is their 'body'. Nowhere is there any impossible 'space' existing between conscious agents. What this means in less abstract, more practical terms was given here in great detail by Cleric.

viewtopic.php?p=17123#p17123

That's how it is possible for SS to speak about the past and the future. On a higher level it becomes evident that the states of Earthly life funnel in certain direction. We make plans based on our limited perspective but at the same time the macro-structure of the dream narrows down in certain direction and ultimately we're forced to manifest our states from within that potential. The points of conception and death are two poles within which our states funnel. This is quite self-evident also in the case of planetary motion for example. We may wish that our next state can be anywhere in Cosmic space but in reality all our states of being are narrowed down within a palette which is consistent with the perceptual content of the Earthly planetary environment.

This may seem fantastic but in reality this is what planetary motions really are. What we see with our eyes is only the crystalized manifestation of states. From higher order perspective, the gods don't see a planet moving into some orbit. Instead, their activity shapes the potential curvature which is hierarchically being narrowed down. From the perspective of the gods, their activity is also experienced as becoming, as manifestation of potential. This is very well illustrated in Genesis where it's said "And Elohim said, “Let light come to be,” and light came to be. And Elohim saw the light, that it was good." These are very deep things and they speak directly of this horizon of manifestation. So even the Elohim manifest their activity from within unseen potential and only as it crosses the horizon becomes perceptible. The difference is that for the higher beings, what they manifest is the 'shape' of potential which can be further narrowed down. In this sense, the Light that the Elohim create is not simply photons travelling in space through time.

We can imagine it in a simplified way thus. Imagine that you take the 'frames' of inner life from a whole year of your life and superimpose them one over the other. All colors, sounds, thoughts, feelings - everything is superimposed and builds a superposition, similar to white light. Yet this superposition is not absolute white light. There are many more states that are missing. For example, there are no states in this superposition which correspond to the inner experience of beholding the Mars environment. So it's structured potential. Imagine that (I repeat that this is oversimplification) the Elohim thinks the superposition of states of being which correspond to one year of time. The Elohim sees these superimposed states from the same first-person perspective, just like we do. This superposition is structured such that it contains all possible (first-person) states of being that humans can go through within a year time. Through the narrowing down of this potential, many relative perspectives become possible which are consistent with each other. From within this narrowed potential, the Elohim's activity is experienced in its time-decohered form.

Thanks for elaborating your view, Ashvin.

I resonate strongly with George Orwell's statement that, “To see what is in front of one’s nose needs a constant struggle.”

[Federica]

I think we should be clear what "nested" means.

It doesn't make any difference, Ashvin, in this context, what "nested" exactly means. We can take any possible meaning of nested, there is not one of them that would eliminate Eugene's contradictory statements, here arguing for the direct connection with Source, no hierarchies "whatsoever", and there accepting the Divine hierarchies as a matter of fact. The hierarchies could be nested, rooted, twisted, braided, whatever. It doesn't change the point. Moreover, trying to explain the contradiction using Lou's suggestion, Eugene only added a new contradiction. That of a hierarchy that is not a hierarchy. So let's not provide him now with ample material to dilute everything, and divert attention, as usual.