Meditation exercise on "separate me"

[Stranger]

One additional question before we can make the conclusion.

In the nondual state there's no longer me and other. There's oneness, even though still experienced through an unique perspective. That's OK. But how it follows from this that the activity we think, feel, will from that state, is absolutely original creation of the One Self (with which we're now fully one)? The two things (the absence of distinction between me and spiritual phenomena (1), and being a direct perspective of the First Cause (2) ) are quite independent. There's logical disconnect here and we have established this already. For example, in a form of pathological depersonalization the distinction between me and environment can be completely smeared out, yet does this mean that now everything that happens within this perspective is the original and unquestionable expression of the One Self? Obviously not and you have also stated that this is one of the dangers of depersonalization. It may be that we're simply free falling through quite structured potential, even though in a very nondual state (no distinction between me and environment).

But then the question is at what point we decide that whatever happens with our perspective is no longer explainable in any other way but only through being pure and free expression of the Divine Self that we are? Taking the example with reincarnation again (I'm using this only because we're already familiar with it, not that I want to return on that question), how can you be sure that your decision not to reincarnate is the decision of the Divine Self that you are and not shaped by certain potential wells of which you are unconscious in your present state of depersonalization?

Well, the mature nondual state is a state of Love and harmony of the Self with the Cosmos as a creation of the Self. Whatever activity of feeling or thinking may arise, there should be a clear discerning intuition whether this feeling or thought is in harmony with the Self and its Cosmos or not, in harmony with Love of the Self towards its Creation, whether they are serving old egoic patterns or serving "the good of all" from the nondual perspective. In the well-developed nondual state the experience of the Divine Love is absolutely real and becomes the "probing stone" against which all arising thoughts or feelings are "calibrated" so to speak. So, in short, there is a certain higher-intuitive spiritual discernment based on the living experience of the Divine Love that needs to be developed as part of the mature nondual state soul structure. That spiritual discernment and living experience of Love is what is missing in the derealization-depersonalization syndrome.

Another way to put it in words is that in the mature nondual state an access opens to the nondual realm of the living state of Self as it knows Itself and Loves its Creation as Self. That experiential knowledge is what becomes a living force and "curvature" to shape and direct all lower-level structures of the soul to come in harmony with this living experience of the Divine Love.

I am in them and you are in me, so that they may be made completely one, that the world may know you have sent me and have loved them as you have loved me. (John 17:23)

[Federica]

Hi Federica

“Distancing from unpleasant feelings”? “Pacification”? This is just the opposite!
The way to “not feel its weight too much” is exactly to stay with the mild irritation (in this case). That is exactly what keeps the child locked up, because one is not prepared to ACTUALLY look inside and FEEL what the child feels.

I have a deeper feeling now of where this path is leading me, and I believe you are on a different trajectory. And that’s fine. We each have to follow our own path, and they will eventually merge.

Hi Mike,

What's important is that you have reached a state where the irritation is not there. That's what I mean by pacification and distancing.

And the thing is, is that the impatience as such is now gone. It’s over for me. There’s no more mind tricks when I’m in a conversation. The ego knows the game is over with regards that particular feeling

And the result is obtained by dis-associating from the ego, so that the ego tries to play mind tricks, but it's game over because you are not identified with it anymore, correct? It is not obtained by a clarification of the underlying reasons that were causing you to experience the feeling, is it?

Anyway, I understand that you are working on feelings, and you have developed a deeper feeling of where the path is leading you. But my point is, feelings are unreliable, when not inquired and fully turned inside out (which is very different from staying with the feeling). Raw feelings are submitted to the most diverse and unconscious streams of influence, and it's dangerous to set up and deepen a spiritual practice on such unstable and arbitrary basis.

I can't agree that each of us has to follow our own paths - we can change our path.
And some are true, and some are dangerous. Yes, reality is always "fine", however we can and should use our freedom to make it fine through us, in us, and for us as well.

[AshvinP]

OK, but do you see any role for our fragmenting desires, feelings, thoughts (turned towards the sensuous and personal egoic interests), at both the individual and collective scales (species, races, nations, families, etc.), over the course of many incarnational cycles, in the elaborating of these Karmic structures which condition our current soul-perspective? And if so, what is our responsibility in redeeming them? Do we simply have a nondual realization during our current incarnation and the negative Cosmic effects of this entire Karmic complex is wiped out, so we are completely free of its conditioning? This should intersect with your most recent discussion with Cleric on this thread as well. The "separate me" perspective cannot be understood, let alone redeemed, through 'quarantine' or otherwise, apart from this Karmic complex which has entangled it within personalized interests. Why should our collective-individual Karma be wiped out simply by making a one-time decision to incarnate in another realm or race?

Our responsibility in redeeming these karmic structures is in making all efforts to redeem them first of all within our personal steam of spiritual activity. I have very little capability to redeem your or anyone else's karmic de-evolutionary structures, the only way I can do it is through writing on these forums and convincing people to take their responsibility to do the same. This work can only be done on the level of the individuated spiritual activity from the first-person perspective. It is similar to healing from a decease, and whatever means are efficient for healing then they should be used, including quarantine if needed. The Karma will not be "wiped-out" by one-time incarnation in another race, it will be gradually redeemed and transcended over however many lives it needs to take, but the healing process will be much more efficient when a soul is quarantined from the contagiousness of the collective decease of humanity. I'm not saying that it is a necessary route, but only a possible one. It can be compared to going to another country to get a good education unavailable in your native underdeveloped country so that you can then return back and help your country to develop further in a better way than you could if you would not get that education. But whatever reincarnational route is taken, you are right that the mechanisms of the "separate me" perspective needs to be well understood in order to be redeemed and healed. And, for example, the meditative exercise in the root of this thread is designed exactly for that.

So what would be some practical examples of doing this redemptive work? For ex., do you envision that we can work on redeeming our Karma, or ideally the Karma of our nested collectives, without concrete, experiential knowledge of our past incarnations?

In terms of quarantining the soul from contagious 'separate self' diseases, there are so many questions. It seems that first we need to assume there are alien evolutionary streams which exist parallel to our own, which for some reason never descended into personal entanglements (which would also mean they are not free beings, but spiritual infants flowing along with Divine impulses). Presumably this assumption would be based on vague NDE accounts and secret nondual scriptures.

Then we need to assume that somehow we can maintain continuity of consciousness even if we are transplanted into this completely different worldline. How would we resonate with such experiences so that they maintain our continuity of self?

Further it seems that such a move implies a regression into pre-Fall states of being, rather than progressing through our ego-consciousness into freely desired reunion with the Divine Self. Or we would be the only free beings in this new 'country', working on our Karma from the old country while the native beings have no Karma of their own to speak of.

And how do we redress wrongs done to others if we have left the native planetary environment where they are still residing?

Or maybe I am completely misunderstanding the nature of these other 'countries' to which we hope to travel after death.

[Stranger]

PS: So, regarding the question of incarnating-or-not into human form for the souls on the nondual path, here is a perspective on it in the Tibetan Buddhist tradition. There are Buddhist masters called "tulkus" that are reincarnations of some known masters of the past. For example, Dalai Lama is always a reincarnation of one of the previous Dalai Lamas, but there are many other tulkus like that as well. The way it works is that when a master reincarnates, the reincarnated tulku as a child is always recognized by lamas at a very early age (2-3 yo). It is interesting how the lamas use tests to find out if a child is a tulku, for example, asking a child to choose some things that belonged to the master (like prayer rope, prayer wheel etc) from many other similar things. Then once the tulku is recognized, the lamas take him away from the parents to a monastery and give him excellent education and immersion back into the spiritual tradition and practice so that his previous knowledge and nondual state would be restored as quick as possible and the soul can continue its development without impediments and setbacks. Most tulkus show the signs of the nondual state at a very early age. In this scenario reincarnation into human form makes perfect sense. However, for a soul on the nondual path to reincarnate in some family in our Western materialistic and dualistic culture is a recipe for a significant setback in the soul evolutionary path because a child will be strongly conditioned by materialistic and dualistic culture with guaranteed dualistic perception developed at a very early age and isolated from the knowledge of nondual teachings and practices that they accumulated in the previous life. Of course, the psyche in unconscious layers will still retain certain nondual karmic structures and memories from the previous life, but it may take decades to restore it to the state of the previous life and disentangle all that dualistic/materialistic conditioning done during the early age. So, from the perspective of the effectiveness of the healing process, such reincarnation would make little practical sense. Also, in both cases, the conditioning from dualistic karmic structures in the collective human unconscious will also strongly affect the soul, but in the case of tulkus this conditioning is not so strong because the monastic environment gives a good protection from such karma and usually the soul's nondual state is already strong and mature enough and can withstand the pull of this collective karma (because they already were masters in the previous lives). So again, the tulku path is not for the beginners on the nondual path, but only for already mature masters.

[Cleric]

how can you be sure that your decision not to reincarnate is the decision of the Divine Self that you are and not shaped by certain potential wells of which you are unconscious in your present state of depersonalization?

Unless I am misinterpreting what you are asking here, Cleric, I already asked this question (just not about reincarnation specifically) twice. Eugene ignored it twice. Let's see, it would be nice to get an answer

Sorry, Federica. I admit I go through the forum a little hastily in the last few weeks because of insufficient time so it seems I've missed your posts.

Eugene, I'll return to your answer tomorrow.

[AshvinP]

PS: So, regarding the question of incarnating-or-not into human form for the souls on the nondual path, here is a perspective on it in the Tibetan Buddhist tradition. There are Buddhist masters called "tulkus" that are reincarnations of some known masters of the past. For example, Dalai Lama is always a reincarnation of one of the previous Dalai Lamas, but there are many other tulkus like that as well. The way it works is that when a master reincarnates, the reincarnated tulku as a child is always recognized by lamas at a very early age (2-3 yo). It is interesting how the lamas use tests to find out if a child is a tulku, for example, asking a child to choose some things that belonged to the master (like prayer rope, prayer wheel etc) from many other similar things. Then once the tulku is recognized, the lamas take him away from the parents to a monastery and give him excellent education and immersion back into the spiritual tradition and practice so that his previous knowledge and nondual state would be restored as quick as possible and the soul can continue its development without impediments and setbacks. Most tulkus show the signs of the nondual state at a very early age. In this scenario reincarnation into human form makes perfect sense. However, for a soul on the nondual path to reincarnate in some family in our Western materialistic and dualistic culture is a recipe for a significant setback in the soul evolutionary path because a child will be strongly conditioned by materialistic and dualistic culture with guaranteed dualistic perception developed at a very early age and isolated from the knowledge of nondual teachings and practices that they accumulated in the previous life. Of course, the psyche in unconscious layers will still retain certain nondual karmic structures and memories from the previous life, but it may take decades to restore it to the state of the previous life and disentangle all that dualistic/materialistic conditioning done during the early age. So, from the perspective of the effectiveness of the healing process, such reincarnation would make little practical sense. Also, in both cases, the conditioning from dualistic karmic structures in the collective human unconscious will also strongly affect the soul, but in the case of tulkus this conditioning is not so strong because the monastic environment gives a good protection from such karma and usually the soul's nondual state is already strong and mature enough and can withstand the pull of this collective karma (because they already were masters in the previous lives). So again, the tulku path is not for the beginners on the nondual path, but only for already mature masters.

I think we should be clear that the above is very much compatible with the SS understanding of reincarnation and Karma. There is no doubt that our intentions across the threshold, in cooperation with Divine guidance, plays the critical role in determining which hereditary line and overall circumstances we reincarnate into (on Earth) for our further spiritual development. And it probably makes sense to only speak of the average person, who we are no doubt all closer to in our own spiritual development, than spiritual Masters. But all of this leads logically to the following question - how do we know, on this side of the threshold, what is the optimal decision for ourselves and for our nested collectives?

There is a whole elaborated period of experience across the threshold, lasting many times longer than our Earthly incarnation, through which we make the reincarnation decision. It is exactly by knowing the inner side of our feelings, thoughts and deeds, that we come to know how they impressed into the Earthly and Cosmic landscape and, therefore, how best to plan our next incarnation to address that conditioning. On the other thread, I mentioned how radically different the bubbling surface of our given conscious aperture is from the spiritual depths. If we take this seriously, then we should realize that it makes little sense to use that conscious aperture, with its Earthly percepts-concepts bubbling at the surface, looking from the outside-in, to try and determine what decisions we have made or will make or should make across the threshold.

Does that mean we need to rest comfortably and wait for death? Not at all. We can do much in the way of preparation, so we can retain consciousness for the greatest possible aperture of our journey across the threshold and therefore participate more in the decision-making process. Cleric already went over this previously. The training for the inflow of higher ideations is exactly how we begin to discern the inner side of our Earthly experiences on this side of the threshold. Those higher ideations are the activity of the higher beings we live and work with across the threshold. There really is no optional workaround to knowing the details of this lawful gradient. Without such living knowledge, we will not have the freedom we desire to make the carefully orchestrated incarnational decisions. Instead, we will dream and sleep through most of the journey across the threshold.

[Federica]

how can you be sure that your decision not to reincarnate is the decision of the Divine Self that you are and not shaped by certain potential wells of which you are unconscious in your present state of depersonalization?

Unless I am misinterpreting what you are asking here, Cleric, I already asked this question (just not about reincarnation specifically) twice. Eugene ignored it twice. Let's see, it would be nice to get an answer

Sorry, Federica. I admit I go through the forum a little hastily in the last few weeks because of insufficient time so it seems I've missed your posts.

Eugene, I'll return to your answer tomorrow.

No... As in Ashvin's illustration on the other thread, there are more or less intuitive, and more or less effective, ways to cast out meaning through language, of which you have given an instructive example with this question!

[Stranger]

But all of this leads logically to the following question - how do we know, on this side of the threshold, what is the optimal decision for ourselves and for our nested collectives?

Does that mean we need to rest comfortably and wait for death? Not at all. We can do much in the way of preparation, so we can retain consciousness for the greatest possible aperture of our journey across the threshold and therefore participate more in the decision-making process. Cleric already went over this previously. The training for the inflow of higher ideations is exactly how we begin to discern the inner side of our Earthly experiences on this side of the threshold. Those higher ideations are the activity of the higher beings we live and work with across the threshold. There really is no optional workaround to knowing the details of this lawful gradient. Without such living knowledge, we will not have the freedom we desire to make the carefully orchestrated incarnational decisions. Instead, we will dream and sleep through most of the journey across the threshold.

During the human life we do not know, all we talk here about the next incarnation are just speculations. So, as we agreed, we should leave the optimal decision till that moment happens, but as you said, it also helps to prepare for it and learn about it as much as we can still in this life. We still need to develop spiritual discernment to be prepared to meet spiritual beings of different levels of development on the other side, as we discussed in the other thread.

Based on my spiritual experience, the nondual realization, development of higher levels of cognition and reaching to the higher beings in the nondual realms is the lawful gradient for the development of the soul.

[AshvinP]

But all of this leads logically to the following question - how do we know, on this side of the threshold, what is the optimal decision for ourselves and for our nested collectives?

Does that mean we need to rest comfortably and wait for death? Not at all. We can do much in the way of preparation, so we can retain consciousness for the greatest possible aperture of our journey across the threshold and therefore participate more in the decision-making process. Cleric already went over this previously. The training for the inflow of higher ideations is exactly how we begin to discern the inner side of our Earthly experiences on this side of the threshold. Those higher ideations are the activity of the higher beings we live and work with across the threshold. There really is no optional workaround to knowing the details of this lawful gradient. Without such living knowledge, we will not have the freedom we desire to make the carefully orchestrated incarnational decisions. Instead, we will dream and sleep through most of the journey across the threshold.

During the human life we do not know, all we talk here about the next incarnation are just speculations. So, as we agreed, we should leave the optimal decision till that moment happens, but as you said, it also helps to prepare for it and learn about it as much as we can still in this life. We still need to develop spiritual discernment to be prepared to meet spiritual beings of different levels of development on the other side, as we discussed in the other thread.

Based on my spiritual experience, the nondual realization, development of higher levels of cognition and reaching to the higher beings in the nondual realms is the lawful gradient for the development of the soul.

They only remain speculations when we are on the outside looking in. You have acknowledged that remains the case with nondual realization, despite being a necessary first step. It is no longer the case with higher cognition, once the glove has been turned inside out. Then the spiritual worlds inflow our human life, as we are made more conscious of how they have always been present, structuring our experience, making sense of our stream of becoming. The beings across the threshold are with us now, lawfully structuring the Earthly environment through us.

Training for higher cognition is very much furthered by diligently seeking answers to questions such as, 'why do we want spiritual truths across the threshold to remain speculations?' Speculations don't carry the motivating force of reasoned convictions. They don't stand before us as living Ideals which judge our current state of being and give us concrete revelations of how we are falling short, as well as feedback for what needs to be done to transform ourselves and attune to the Cosmic Will. These things, speculations can't do. So is it any wonder we want them to remain speculations? They may be speculations for us, but we want them to be speculations for everyone else too, now and forever. Higher cognition demands we ask and answer such questions for ourselves, from within ourselves, which is a big reason why the path to it is so strenuously avoided.

[Stranger]

They only remain speculations when we are on the outside looking in. You have acknowledged that remains the case with nondual realization, despite being a necessary first step. It is no longer the case with higher cognition, once the glove has been turned inside out. Then the spiritual worlds inflow our human life, as we are made more conscious of how they have always been present, structuring our experience, making sense of our stream of becoming. The beings across the threshold are with us now, lawfully structuring the Earthly environment through us.

Training for higher cognition is very much furthered by diligently seeking answers to questions such as, 'why do we want spiritual truths across the threshold to remain speculations?' Speculations don't carry the motivating force of reasoned convictions. They don't stand before us as living Ideals which judge our current state of being and give us concrete revelations of how we are falling short, as well as feedback for what needs to be done to transform ourselves and attune to the Cosmic Will. These things, speculations can't do. So is it any wonder we want them to remain speculations? They may be speculations for us, but we want them to be speculations for everyone else too, now and forever. Higher cognition demands we ask and answer such questions for ourselves, from within ourselves, which is a big reason why the path to it is so strenuously avoided.

The reason I said that they are speculations is because, on the forum discussions, they will remain speculations due to differences in people's opinions. For me, based on my first-person spiritual experience and the knowledge I got from it, they are not speculations, but the spiritual intuitions and meanings I experientially know, including those regarding reincarnations. But even if we get some degree of knowledge of the higher meanings, they are inevitably limited and incomplete in our human form, so there will always be some degree of speculation and uncertainty.