Philosophical Speculations

Cleric wrote: ↑Sat Aug 23, 2025 9:17 pm As the cliché goes, ‘the devil is in the details,’ and here we must take this seriously. ‘Gradual’ must be grasped in the correct way. Physicalists today still seek the solution to the abiogenetic origin of life. They believe they pretty much have the general geometry of the solution in the sack and only need to gradually fill in the missing pieces. In the physicalist's defense, it is not easy to be conscious of this implicit geometry of consciousness (fish not aware of the water). When one operates as a brain-bound intellectual being, the whole reality is intuited through this prism. One needs to have experienced at least one more instance of inner space geometry in order to understand this implicitness.

Those who have some feeling of being a soul (and not only a body) have a slight advantage, although in our age this feeling is often so dim that it barely makes a real difference. When the feeling is more pronounced, however, the experience of be-ing is indeed different. In the simplest terms, the physicalist feels skin- and brain-bound. If imaginative activity stretches beyond the bodily volume, one quickly suffixes it with something like “but this is simply an illusion created by the brain.” Those who genuinely feel themselves as souls have more expanded consciousness. Alongside the pixels of inner bodily phenomena, they have at least some sense of being a soul-sphere interfacing with the bodily organs.

Now we need to challenge even this soul-bound experience. Let’s try to imagine the inner, first-person movies of existence of incarnated Christian souls, as superimposed. Earthly lives are so diverse that most sensations largely cancel out. Nevertheless, there are certain feeling and ideal patterns that are mostly in phase. If Christianity is grasped properly, these patterns transcend nation and race, thus they are not the work Folk Spirits (Archangels). Since they are sought as eternal truths, they also transcend the Spirits of the Epoch (Archai). Thus, these universal patterns (speaking of soul geometry) mostly lie in the domain of the Spirits of Form (SoF).

We can never understand these things by imagining some spiritual creature that somehow produces patterns in spiritual space. We need to feel that when we differentiate in meditation from our personal, national, and epochal sympathies and antipathies, and we feel as a pure soul in the light of the Christ, this common inner space geometry, this sense of what we are as a being, is mainly the shape of potential supported by SoFs. As an analogy, if we consider the human physical form, we have the Pentagram. We need to experience it from within. We need to feel the inner space that we sweep with our limbs and head. Then we can imagine this space thickening and containing all conceivable human forms along with the possible transformations that they can undergo.

We should conceive something similar also for our soul geometry. The first thing to note is that these forms of potential are themselves transforming in the course of evolution. These archetypal envelope-forms can be thought of as standing waves within the even more general ideal flow – the inner life of the Spirits of Motion (SoM). I’m sure that these things are quite clear to you, as you say:

Instead, showing the existing structure to be pregnant with the materials of its own further unfolding - with the enlivened thought life of the Spirits of Motion - is the way forward, and the extent to which reincarnation and karma will be realized in this transformation will be the extent to which individual souls come to experience these things inwardly.

Now, it is not hard to see that the present Christian life is dominated by the SoF. The soul feels itself first and foremost as a form. It feels that it has been created by God – created in exactly the way it feels itself to be, with unique gifts and weaknesses. But most importantly, it feels that the soul identity is fixed. If we take clay, we can split it into several bigger balls or a greater number of smaller ones. Once they are split, they become individual; they have concrete identities. This is something that is deeply implicit in the sense of being a soul. We feel that God has created specifically our individual soul-shape, and this is completely unquestioned. This is simply what existence feels like. We should appreciate that the Bible is quiet on the question of the genesis of souls and their ultimate destiny. The common feeling is that we’re granted individual existence and we’ll eternally exist as a soul-being at this level of granularity (i.e, there’s no notion that at some point the clay may merge into greater lumps).

These are very difficult questions, and there are deep reasons why they are left out. It is worth noting that even Steiner hasn’t delved too much in that direction. The reason is that we can truly understand these things only once we overcome our personal existence. As long as we are haunted by the question, “But what will happen with me?” it is extremely difficult to speak of these things.

Anyway. The point is that the present Christian soul-geometry feels like a soul that needs to be polished around the edges (overcoming sin), but its general shape and identity are more or less fixed. There’s no notion of evolution in the doctrine. There’s polishing, but the Earthly sandbox is mostly formed as it is.

For Christianity to go further, the proper relations between the SoFs and the SoMs must be found. And here we reach a significant fact. In a certain sense, the SoFs that support the present common soul geometry are destined to be so-called backwards SoFs. There’s no vacuum in the Divine flow. Every niche is realized. This is not a condemnation, or anything like that. When there’s demand, there’ll be supply. These archetypal forms are destined to continue their existence simply because there are spiritual beings whose destiny unfolds within their envelope of potential.

Now, just as planets happen to have conjunctions, so there’s still a certain overlap between the SoFs that will become progressive and those that will continue on the descending path. In the future, the souls sheltered in the descending envelope of potential will have even greater difficulty conceiving of the needed change of inner geometry. Such changes will eventually be possible only in the period between death and rebirth. In other words, the incarnated souls will fight quite zealously to preserve the soul potential-envelope of their existence.

We are at an important stage of human history where an increasing number of souls have the inner flexibility to align with one or another constellation of SoFs. This doesn’t necessarily need to be developed as clear Inspirative consciousness. It’s simply that the “I” has emancipated from the sheaths of traditional secular and religious life, and at least in its ideal life, can understand the perspectives of the different spiritual outlooks. Not only as definitions, but by really feeling what it means to be a pagan, a muslim, a Christian, etc.

Such flexibility is needed if we are to find our proper place within the properly evolving SoFs. The reason is the following. If these SoFs could express it in words, it may sound something like this: “If we are to find our proper musical relations with the progressive SoMs, we need to work together with you. The Divine flow has it that we are not allowed to simply possess you within our standing-wave forms and carry you forward. You need to find the resonant relations through your own forces, in freedom. These forces are new. These are degrees of freedom that have hitherto been dormant. Until now, while incarnated, you were instinctively flowing within a certain constellation of SoFs, and that simply felt as what it is to exist as a soul. Now that you need to align through your own forces with one or another constellation, you are discovering new means to shift your deeper soul-shape. This is how the spiritual soul awakens. Just as awakening in the ego is at the same time to recognize yourself in thinking, so to awaken in the higher soul means to recognize yourself in still deeper forms of inner activity. To find the proper soul-shape, it is of critical importance to realize that you are not looking for the next fixed inner geometry but to find yourself as an archetypal standing-wave form of potential within the archetypal streams of the SoMs, with whom you need to align. Then, our common form will be the result of this mutual effort.”

As pretentious as this may sound, something like the video feedback meditation already works in that direction. If we really grasp it in the proper depth, we’ll realize that this meditation helps us feel placed differently within the World flow. In fact, the reason we constantly speak of this ‘World flow’ is precisely because we strive to feel our momentary state as the continuously metamorphosing World state, the Tetris-like concretization of potential. If experienced in the right way, this completely transforms our form-dominated (or space-dominated) sense of existence. We no longer feel like a fixed soul-shape that simply needs slight polishing here and there, and everything else is to be expected after death, but we awaken to the fact that our whole existence is only a transitional form in the flow of Cosmic metamorphosis – the Divine turning inside out through our first-person perspective.

If we succeed in experiencing ourselves in such a way in our thinking flow (this is where this sense of becoming can be experienced in the clearest way), the questions of Karma and Reincarnation are simply the most obvious features of such a flow-existence (just like you say above). The reason why these questions seem disturbing, doubtful, etc., is because while we are still form-dominated, we picture reincarnation as our form moving from Earthly space to the beyond-space and then back into a body. Such an image is indeed floating in the air, it’s simply a shaky fantasy, and it is normal that we may feel certain uneasiness about it. When, however, our inner perspective becomes flow-centric instead of form-centric, then we discover this completely factual experience of rhythmic metamorphoses. Then we understand reincarnation from the first-person perspective, and this makes all the difference. Now, reincarnation is no more miraculous than the fact that we experience the alternation of sleeping and waking consciousness. We simply discover that our first-person existence metamorphoses through such rhythms within rhythms.

Returning to the gradual transformation, we can easily realize that there’s no simple way in which the form-centric can be gradually polished until it becomes flow-centric. This doesn’t mean that there’s some vast chasm that we should cross on blind faith. In fact, we can bring them arbitrarily close to each other. It’s only that no matter how much we talk about concentration, at some point we simply need to stop talking and concentrate the force that we use for talking. No matter how refined, the description of the exercise won’t gradually transform into the performance of the exercise.

For this reason, as the ascending and descending SoFs keep getting apart, so will also souls that are sheltered within them. Of course, those on the flow-centric path have no problem understanding the inner life of those who are fixed within a specific form-centric geometry, but the latter simply lack that inner mobility. This is what will lead to the inevitable split. And we should be clear that those in the lines of the RCC, awakening to the flow-centric existence, will be the minority. As such, the majority are those that get to keep the RCC trademark. They’ll be the ones who believe they stay true to the millennia-old Testament of Christ, while the separatists will simply be seen as possessed by demons (this holds not only for the RCC but any form-centric religion).

Such a deeper understanding is vital. And hopefully, by the way it is spoken of, it is clear that it’s not about abstract schemas. Everything above refers to the completely living ways in which we experience our existence. If we do not understand these archetypal carrier flows of our existence, then that which is to happen, and is already happening, will be completely misunderstood. For example, we may think that it is a matter of talking the descending RCC out; we may believe that it’s a matter of providing them with more convincing arguments. This, however, will only outrage them more. Such things have already been experienced on a smaller scale here.

So to summarize, we need to comprehend (that which you have also very exactly pointed out) – our next step of development depends on finding the flow-centric mode of existence. This is at the same time the attunement of the SoFs and the SoMs within the human being into a musical ensemble. It is inevitable that SoFs that maintain the form-centric mode will preserve their Cosmic meditation, which, however, is already on a descending path. It goes increasingly out of tune with the ascending Divine flow. The corresponding religions sheltered in these SoFs will inevitably degenerate. If we contemplate the John impulse from within these descending communities, we’ll say, “It is not yet the time. The souls around me are not yet prepared to approach these things. For the time being, I’ll keep them a private concern.” On the next day, however, we’ll say, “Conditions have worsened. The transition needs to be delayed a bit more.” And in this way, with each new day, instead of getting closer to the transition, it becomes more and more remote. This doesn’t mean that we shouldn’t help the souls that are still form-bound. But we need to be aware that the full blossoming of the flow-centric human being will require new wineskins.

AshvinP wrote: ↑Mon Aug 25, 2025 1:53 am Thanks for sharing this, Rodriel. I am wondering if you can elaborate on this 'progress' a bit, as this has been a central theme of discussions on this forum lately, for example, in the "saving the materialists" thread. Generally we have tried to hone in on what the most appropriate 'bridge' looks like from the form-centric to the flow-centric soul life, i.e., what kind of specific affinities and resistances are at work when approaching an introspective cognitive path where the real-time flow of thinking is lifted out of the blind spot. I think we probably agree that 'progress' in this domain cannot be evaluated only at the content level, where chains of philosophical, scientific, or theological concepts seem to align with esoteric descriptions of reality. (many discissions on the Discord chat come to mind here). Instead, the soul needs to feel its concept chains, not as fully finished and unquestionable forms, but as fluidly embedded within a concrete intuitive landscape of meaning through which it is instinctively steering.

Güney27 wrote: ↑Sat Aug 23, 2025 12:37 pm Rodriel,

How do you think the Catholic conception of Christ and the Incarnation can be reconciled with the anthroposophical conception? The Church radically rejects the idea that there were two Jesus children or that the Incarnation was only complete after the baptism, among other things.
This would essentially declare the Church’s interpretation as entirely false.

The Church’s teachings (Catechism and Dogmatics) cannot integrate these elements without completely abandoning its doctrine. I also cannot imagine that this will happen. Rudolf Steiner and Valentin tomberg are likely considered as heretics by most Catholics. Of course, there are theologians who are more open, such as Hans Urs von Balthasar. What would happen if a cardinal or a pope began publicly discussing the idea of two Jesus children or other antroposoohical elements of Steiners christology?

AshvinP wrote: ↑Sat Aug 23, 2025 9:12 pm
Perhaps it doesn't "immediately appear to consciousness", and perhaps you still flow with discursively argumentative and antipathetic modes of thinking and expression on certain topics like these, precisely because you refuse to contemplate the immanent overlap between the "objectivity of the moral order" and the subjective experience of pure thinking. That overlap is what Steiner expresses clearly in many such quotes, as the foundation of PoF and spiritual science, and your note about 'how things stand' is simply turning your current personal limitation on the phenomenological path into some universal rule about what 'man's path to salvation' can or cannot be, a thinking habit which ironically blocks the experience of a moral world order immanently present in pure thinking and thus serves to confirm its own content. In other words, the 'self-education' to resist selfish habits' is the objective moral world order that one is not allowing oneself to experience.

Federica wrote: ↑Mon Aug 25, 2025 6:00 am

AshvinP wrote: ↑Sat Aug 23, 2025 9:12 pm
Perhaps it doesn't "immediately appear to consciousness", and perhaps you still flow with discursively argumentative and antipathetic modes of thinking and expression on certain topics like these, precisely because you refuse to contemplate the immanent overlap between the "objectivity of the moral order" and the subjective experience of pure thinking. That overlap is what Steiner expresses clearly in many such quotes, as the foundation of PoF and spiritual science, and your note about 'how things stand' is simply turning your current personal limitation on the phenomenological path into some universal rule about what 'man's path to salvation' can or cannot be, a thinking habit which ironically blocks the experience of a moral world order immanently present in pure thinking and thus serves to confirm its own content. In other words, the 'self-education' to resist selfish habits' is the objective moral world order that one is not allowing oneself to experience.

Sure I have antipathetic impulses in my personality, as I emphasized before, even in this thread. But your venom is pretty ironic too - not very anthroposophical! Just think: can you imagine Cleric writing the above? We all know the answer.
Please note: in my replies there is no venom, but opinions and factual arguments. The dissonance you create around yourself when you pour from such inner reservoirs that produce behaviors and thoughts of the kind you are exhibiting, are an interesting testimony, Ashvin, in particular when put side to side with the great writing you are also capable of.

By the way, that the objective moral order is only realized after a while and not upon beginning the exercises and efforts to discipline the soul, is far from being only my experience, and I guess, if you carefully and openly think back to your own path, you will encounter a similar finding. That this is my experience is an additional element to illustrate an opinion based on my understanding of modern man, grounded in Steiner. Self-education is the moral order: sure it is, in the absolute. You don't need to keep stating things as if I had opposed them, we already know you are very good at that.

Rodriel Gabrez wrote: ↑Mon Aug 25, 2025 3:26 am Thank you for another incredibly thorough and insightful response. I'll need to take some time to ponder it.

Rodriel Gabrez wrote: ↑Sat Aug 23, 2025 7:12 pm

Another thing I try to do, even when speaking to Anthroposophists, is to limit my communication of the esoteric to things I am able to personally corroborate. Though I do sometimes forget to do this, I make an effort to make clear where I am merely paraphrasing Steiner vs where I am speaking from a place of personal certainty. I'm no great seer, so much of what Steiner reports is still unverified content from my personal standpoint. I have great reason to find Steiner a most trustworthy resource, of course, and have found - like he often said - that merely absorbing spiritual science with an unprejudiced attitude yields profound results. I believe, however, that we are a rare breed who are predisposed toward taking this up. So what I have been able to make my own (what I've been able to weave into my organization via the I), I now actively seek ways of communicating that are more likely to get through to people.

AshvinP wrote: ↑Mon Aug 25, 2025 10:21 am My ability to refrain from responding in kind is certainly wanting, although the 'venom' is experienced with much more sting when we feel that anything addressing deeper soul factors that steer thinking is some kind of personal attack. Even if I made it less personal, removed the "you", and spoke of it all hypothetically, the substance would remain the same and you would feel insulted that the comment was written to you. We have seen this play out so many times before and not only with my comments. It makes it difficult to even carry on a spiritual scientific discussion above an abstract, discursive level.

I was able to ignore your first attempt to bait me into such an argument, which had almost nothing to do with the point I made, but not your second, which at least seemed a bit more substantive, like you were somewhat interested in exploring the connection fiurther in an open-ended way. Alas, you questioned my assertion, I responded, and simply quoting Steiner was enough excuse for you to launch into curt responses. The 'fuse' seems to be getting shorter and shorter instead of longer. Might this have something to do with your struggle to discover the synonymity of cognitive and moral striving on the intuitive path? That's up to you to explore, of course.

The point is simple - one cannot neatly delineate cognitive striving from moral striving on the inner path. There is no beginning with one independently of the other, unless one is engaged in completely theoretical philosophizing or completely mindless asceticism. The connection may not be quite conscious at first, without a doubt, but once we gain some distance on what it is we are actually doing, what we are actually involved in, the synonymity should become more and more conscious. Self-education (catharsis, purification, etc.) is not only the congitive-moral order in the absolute, but in the real-time experience of its unfoldment. It is the immanent process of realizing the unity between the poles of existence - cognition and will, natural and moral, etc.

Federica wrote: ↑Mon Aug 25, 2025 11:56 am Ah… thank you! Your last paragraph is pretty close to what I was saying. And the fact that "the connection may not be quite conscious at first, until we gain some distance on what it is we are actually doing", does mean that in our time, as a general rule for whatever esoteric path in the West, we are first attracted to the cognitive side, then we begin the work, and then we gain some distance, and moral consciousness on what we are actually doing. Which is why, in the post in question, I was arguing that Anthroposophy is better suited than the RCC to foster human evolution in the right way, since it suits a man who is drawn to begin with cognition, rather than with morality. That’s it. And I genuinely wonder (refraining from speculations) why both Rodriel and you suddenly became passive aggressive specifically on that point.

Federica wrote: ↑Mon Aug 25, 2025 11:56 am Ah… thank you! Your last paragraph is pretty close to what I was saying. And the fact that "the connection may not be quite conscious at first, until we gain some distance on what it is we are actually doing", does mean that in our time, as a general rule for whatever esoteric path in the West, we are first attracted to the cognitive side, then we begin the work, and then we gain some distance, and moral consciousness on what we are actually doing. Which is why, in the post in question, I was arguing that Anthroposophy is better suited than the RCC to foster human evolution in the right way, since it suits a man who is drawn to begin with cognition, rather than with morality. That’s it. And I genuinely wonder (refraining from speculations) why both Rodriel and you suddenly became passive aggressive specifically on that point.