Philosophical Speculations

Cleric K wrote: ↑Sat Mar 13, 2021 3:34 pm All these are perfectly valid cognitive experiences, including empty sets, points, etc.

In the specific (lack of) meanings in contemporary standard theories, those are no valid, and they are not beautiful. They are deeply dishonest obfuscation, and dishonesty is not beautiful.

I'm not sure if you are trying to find the beautiful mathematical ideas which are the grounds out of which spiritual experience unfolds or you use mathematics as a metaphorical language to describe spiritual experience (which is not limited to math).

Well, in the light of my previous math post, what do you think? How does the meditation work for you, if in any way at all?

Shaibei wrote: ↑Sat Mar 13, 2021 6:36 pm There is a simpler example than knowledge about higher worlds. Belief in the objective existence of values ​​and meanings has a crucial impact on our world, including the technical world of science.

There's no doubt that it's simpler to believe. But humanity is growing. Now it needs not only to believe in authorities but to understand. Higher knowledge not only confirms the objective existence of moral values but we can also fully comprehend them through the very sources from which all founders of the great religions of the past received their inspirations.

What is moral for a plant? To have clean air, water, fertile soil and Sunlight. The nature of the plant in itself suggests what is good. Humans also have their life. The trouble is that they are somewhat more complicated than plants - they not only need the physical means for existence but also loving feelings, luminous thoughts and virtuous deeds. And these are constantly being corrupted by sin. Through the darkness of the fall, the great religions have guided infant humanity. You can't explain to a small child all the complex processes in a plant, the carbon cycle, the nutrients, etc. You tell it "watering the plant is good for it". The child takes this on authority from the parent. That's what religions did for young humanity. The Initiates, these advanced human beings, were in the same position as the parent to the child. They couldn't explain easily the secret knowledge of the Kabbalah to the masses. So a child version was given to humans.

Today we are more and more in position to find for ourselves what the Initiates knew long ago and to draw from the same source. Then moral life and values emerge as objective understanding of the human soul and spirit, how they are related to the Earth and the Cosmos, and in what direction evolution is moving.

Cleric K wrote: ↑Sat Mar 13, 2021 7:24 pm

Shaibei wrote: ↑Sat Mar 13, 2021 6:36 pm There is a simpler example than knowledge about higher worlds. Belief in the objective existence of values ​​and meanings has a crucial impact on our world, including the technical world of science.

There's no doubt that it's simpler to believe. But humanity is growing. Now it needs not only to believe in authorities but to understand. Higher knowledge not only confirms the objective existence of moral values but we can also fully comprehend them through the very sources from which all founders of the great religions of the past received their inspirations.

What is moral for a plant? To have clean air, water, fertile soil and Sunlight. The nature of the plant in itself suggests what is good. Humans also have their life. The trouble is that they are somewhat more complicated than plants - they not only need the physical means for existence but also loving feelings, luminous thoughts and virtuous deeds. And these are constantly being corrupted by sin. Through the darkness of the fall, the great religions have guided infant humanity. You can't explain to a small child all the complex processes in a plant, the carbon cycle, the nutrients, etc. You tell it "watering the plant is good for it". The child takes this on authority from the parent. That's what religions did for young humanity. The Initiates, these advanced human beings, were in the same position as the parent to the child. They couldn't explain easily the secret knowledge of the Kabbalah to the masses. So a child version was given to humans.

Today we are more and more in position to find for ourselves what the Initiates knew long ago and to draw from the same source. Then moral life and values emerge as objective understanding of the human soul and spirit, how they are related to the Earth and the Cosmos, and in what direction evolution is moving.

Well put

Cleric K wrote: ↑Sat Mar 13, 2021 6:56 pm

Lou Gold wrote: ↑Sat Mar 13, 2021 6:31 pm I am saying that, once the transformation occurs, there are no longer any adversary beings.

Well, all I can say is - good for you
Unfortunately what you got doesn't work that well for all 'transformed' souls.

It's for them that Goethe wrote:

Mephistopheles: (To Faust.)
These folk wouldn’t feel the devil, even
If he’d got them dangling by the neck.

And it's not like we don't have plenty of examples. Most cult leaders are pretty convinced that they are doing God's will, they are 'in the flow' - so are their followers.

Again, you are strawmanning my words. You offer, quoting me, "I am saying that, once the transformation occurs, there are no longer any adversary beings" but I actually said, "I am saying that, once the transformation occurs, there are no longer any adversary beings. The whispers and screams are your own dissociated projections. On the other hand, for the pleas emerging from the real world, you do your best to deal with them within the limits and opportunities already given to you by God. Life is a dance of work and play, of movement and rest." No, as you warned (earlier on), there should not be expected always a 'good' result. It just means, that be it a success or a failure, you show up and do your work.

"Cult" is yet another loaded-with-baggage word, in the US generally referencing the likes of Jim Jones or Charles Manson. In Brazil, "cult" is a more neutral descriptor for groups following a doctrine or practice and is not used disparagingly. But it's true, as Goethe says, that twisted beings may appear in all forms of social organizations from business, to politics and religion, especially where there are lots of true believers. The problems are often caused by "spiritual bypass" ...

SanteriSatama wrote: ↑Sat Mar 13, 2021 7:05 pm In the specific (lack of) meanings in contemporary standard theories, those are no valid, and they are not beautiful. They are deeply dishonest obfuscation, and dishonesty is not beautiful.

OK. We are speaking of different things. I'm talking about pure mathematics without any attempt to map them to other domains of experience. It is for these that I say they are perfectly valid cognitive experiences in themselves. Otherwise, if they are mapped to perceptions and turned into theories about reality, I fully agree that most of them simply lock the spirit in intellectual loops.

SanteriSatama wrote: ↑Sat Mar 13, 2021 7:05 pm Well, in the light of my previous math post, what do you think? How does the meditation work for you, if in any way at all?

Thanks for the meditations - I love working with geometry in the floating eye! All work with polarities is beneficial for balancing the mirrors in the head organ.
As for your position - I'm still unsure In the context of the meditations I would say that you are using them as symbols for the archetypal processes. But I'm not clear if you strive to find concrete mirror of the archetypal processes in intellectual math concepts. Or you accept that the deeper processes are always more than the sum of the math concepts and operations, and as such math is used as symbolic language for the occult (as it has always been used by the Initiates).

SanteriSatama wrote: ↑Sat Mar 13, 2021 6:51 pm And we should not forget the real question you are asking. How could this consensus reality we share be better? There is no need to make the question and will of "better?" any more complex than it is. Geometries of spheres and their polarities, waves, directions etc. does not answer the question, it can only help to think and feel it more clearly and comprehensively, more aware.

And we return to the bold which is already a step towards what I called moving in the direction of the pole of light. The opposite of that would be to think and feel more confusedly, narrowly and more sleepily. OK, I don't insist to call it 'light'. The question is, is it one-sided to strive towards the bold text? Is this driving humanity off-equilibrium?

Lou Gold wrote: ↑Sat Mar 13, 2021 7:49 pm Again, you are strawmanning my words. You offer, quoting me, "I am saying that, once the transformation occurs, there are no longer any adversary beings" but I actually said, "I am saying that, once the transformation occurs, there are no longer any adversary beings. The whispers and screams are your own dissociated projections. On the other hand, for the pleas emerging from the real world, you do your best to deal with them within the limits and opportunities already given to you by God. Life is a dance of work and play, of movement and rest." No, as you warned (earlier on), there should not be expected always a 'good' result. It just means, that be it a success or a failure, you show up and do your work.

So you accept that there is 'good' result? That there's a way to distinguish success from failure?

"So you accept that there is 'good' result? That there's a way to distinguish success from failure?"

At the localized time-bound level, yes but not necessarily projected onto a cosmic level. About my personal revelations, I must say I trust my direct experiences and hold my interpretations of them agnostically. I keep finding more than I thought. My orientation is more of shamanic way-finding than of philosophical truth-seeking but these are just words describing my inclinations. I rarely consider something an article of my faith until after I have witnessed its affirmation and strengthening in my life and actions across time. Today, I can claim to more calmly and clearly hold the mysteriousness than I was able to 4 decades ago. Today, I am more appreciative of the many ways than I was 4 decades ago. Today, I can more calmly hold uncertainty with trust than I was then. On balance and in the context of our radically shifting times, I feel that I'm on a true path of heart without debilitating dependency on outcome. For me, this feeling is liberating.

Cleric K wrote: ↑Sat Mar 13, 2021 7:56 pm OK. We are speaking of different things. I'm talking about pure mathematics without any attempt to map them to other domains of experience. It is for these that I say they are perfectly valid cognitive experiences in themselves. Otherwise, if they are mapped to perceptions and turned into theories about reality, I fully agree that most of them simply lock the spirit in intellectual loops.

I should clarify, that in this context by 'theory' I mean primarily formal mathematical theories such as ZFC. On the other hand I support intuitionist philosophy of math, which is empirical theory of mathematics in the intuitive and idealist sense of empirism. So, we can have intuitive insight how e.g. point relates to other concepts, and linguistic definitions should follow the intuitive empirical aspect of mathematics, not violate it.

The way to see a point with the eye of the mind necessitates first ideas of flat plane and straight line. To see a point in the FlatLand, we need to make a cut in a straight line, so we can observe a point from the point on the other side of the cut. Another necessity is that the straight lines are parallel and don't meet, otherwise we see only lines, not a point. Whether a line even in most ideal stage can be without any width is IMO highly questionable. I think it is obvious that the width of an ideal line is more than nothing, and that as such is already a very reasonable definition. We run to challenging troubles when trying to relate that with discrete quantification. Few millennia, and probably much much more, have not been enough to solve those troubles in satisfactory way. That foundational crisis has been very acute since Newton, Leibnitz and Berkeley. Attempt to solve the problem by formalist reductionism, by claiming that that any and all lines are infinite sums of infinitesimal points (ie "infinite sets"), leads to IMO intolerable dishonesty, most concretely in form of the absurd claim that non-demonstrable and non-computable real numbers can satisfy field axioms, ie. do basic arithmetic.

As for your position - I'm still unsure In the context of the meditations I would say that you are using them as symbols for the archetypal processes. But I'm not clear if you strive to find concrete mirror of the archetypal processes in intellectual math concepts. Or you accept that the deeper processes are always more than the sum of the math concepts and operations, and as such math is used as symbolic language for the occult (as it has always been used by the Initiates).

Intuitively valid mathematical concepts are not mirrors, unless they are intuited and defined as mirrors. In my foundational approach, continuous processes are fundamental and don't reduce to discrete notions. Embodying and acting out intuitive mathematical investigations e.g. by dancing them has been a part of my methodology, but I don't consider that especially occult. I don't object to such interpretations, but don't fancy the occult aspect of secretive conspiracies myself. That level of paranoid is not good for my mental well being.

And we return to the bold which is already a step towards what I called moving to the pole of light. The opposite of that would be to think and feel more confusedly, narrowly and more sleepily. OK, I don't insist to call it 'light'. The question is, is it one-sided to strive towards the bold text? Is this driving humanity off-equilibrium?

I can't give categorical answer to that question. I already gave my categorical answer: better instead of worse is better. Further and more complex qualifications don't improve that simple definition. As often, less is more. And before you ask, Finnish for 'pleasure' is mielihyvä, ie. mind-good, and displeasure mind-bad. Of course in practice mind-good and mind-bad can be extremely complex processes, but what other empirical criterion can there be?

Lou Gold wrote: ↑Sat Mar 13, 2021 9:03 pm At the localized time-bound level, yes but not necessarily projected onto a cosmic level. About my personal revelations, I must say I trust my direct experiences and hold my interpretations of them agnostically. I keep finding more than I thought. My orientation is more of shamanic way-finding than of philosophical truth-seeking but these are just words describing my inclinations. I rarely consider something an article of my faith until after I have witnessed its affirmation and strengthening in my life and actions across time. Today, I can claim to more calmly and clearly hold the mysteriousness than I was able to 4 decades ago. Today, I am more appreciative of the many ways than I was 4 decades ago. Today, I can more calmly hold uncertainty with trust than I was then. On balance and in the context of our radically shifting times, I feel that I'm on a true path of heart without debilitating dependency on outcome. For me, this feeling is liberating.

OK, so on local time-bound level, you've transformed through the last four decades, although without specifically knowing the direction you were going. You now simply turn back, see where you've been, see where you're now and appreciate that by some criteria you are pleased with the transformation. I guess that if you try you can envision different hypothetical life scenarios that could have led you in completely different direction. For example, if you never had your transformative dream, your atheism (maybe I'm wrong but I remember you mentioned that you were atheist at some point) could have gone even stronger and now instead of the liberated, open-minded elder-child that you are, you could have been just as any other grumpy old man, cursing the youth and the politics. Think about your conscious experience when you go for your walks. Think about the gratitude that you feel for every living moment, for the living beauty all around you, for the opportunity to experience this Cosmic panorama from your unique human perspective. Think of the boundlessness of your consciousness, how it flows and connects you with everything. Now contrast this with the old grumpy man that you could have become. Imagine him taking the same walk. Try to squeeze your whole aura into the small atheistic brain. Imagine how you go all the way and through all the time your consciousness is within a small brain-cloud of confusion, dissatisfaction, resentment. You go around and notice nothing of the scenery, of the life around, the breeze. You return home tired in the same brain-cloud.

Now put these two on a scale. Do you miss any of grumpy's experiences? Do you think you are less of a human because of where you are now? Do you feel one-sidedly developed?

Shaibei wrote: ↑Sat Mar 13, 2021 7:30 pm

Cleric K wrote: ↑Sat Mar 13, 2021 7:24 pm

Shaibei wrote: ↑Sat Mar 13, 2021 6:36 pm There is a simpler example than knowledge about higher worlds. Belief in the objective existence of values ​​and meanings has a crucial impact on our world, including the technical world of science.

There's no doubt that it's simpler to believe. But humanity is growing. Now it needs not only to believe in authorities but to understand. Higher knowledge not only confirms the objective existence of moral values but we can also fully comprehend them through the very sources from which all founders of the great religions of the past received their inspirations.

What is moral for a plant? To have clean air, water, fertile soil and Sunlight. The nature of the plant in itself suggests what is good. Humans also have their life. The trouble is that they are somewhat more complicated than plants - they not only need the physical means for existence but also loving feelings, luminous thoughts and virtuous deeds. And these are constantly being corrupted by sin. Through the darkness of the fall, the great religions have guided infant humanity. You can't explain to a small child all the complex processes in a plant, the carbon cycle, the nutrients, etc. You tell it "watering the plant is good for it". The child takes this on authority from the parent. That's what religions did for young humanity. The Initiates, these advanced human beings, were in the same position as the parent to the child. They couldn't explain easily the secret knowledge of the Kabbalah to the masses. So a child version was given to humans.

Today we are more and more in position to find for ourselves what the Initiates knew long ago and to draw from the same source. Then moral life and values emerge as objective understanding of the human soul and spirit, how they are related to the Earth and the Cosmos, and in what direction evolution is moving.

Well put

Well put indeed! It's high time we start taking the words of Saint Paul seriously:

"And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual people but as to carnal, as to babes in Christ. I fed you with milk and not with solid food; for until now you were not able to receive it, and even now you are still not able; for you are still carnal... According to the grace of God which was given to me, as a wise master builder I have laid the foundation, and another builds on it. But let each one take heed how he builds on it... Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?"
-1 Cor. 3