Philosophical Speculations

Stranger wrote: ↑Mon Apr 10, 2023 10:05 pm

Lou Gold wrote: ↑Mon Apr 10, 2023 9:37 pm But the only thing that can discern whether a view is an insight or an illusion, a reception or a projection is direct experience. Authentic communion and genuine communication require common experience. Without it, in the realm of uncertainty, we are reduced in clarity but can at least be generous toward possibility and respectful of other practices.

I've found that it's not very skillful to point to the flaws of others except to check out if they are flags of flaws of my own.

You are exactly right, Lou. I'm not trying to point to any flaws of others, but only to point that the Oneness we are talking about is not what Steiner or Cleric are describing here as "oneness". This means there is nothing wrong with the way they understand oneness within the world of Manyness (as merging of thoughts or merging of boundaries), it is still all valid. It only means that they are still missing it when they say "oh, but we already know everything about oneness, we got it all", and this is not do demean their current understanding, but instead, to point to yet another aspect of reality that they can still possibly reach to and enhance their knowledge of reality if they would be sincerely open to it (or anyone else reading this thread can also reach to it in case they haven't already done so). It is invitation and not exclusion or demeaning.

Cleric K wrote: ↑Mon Apr 10, 2023 9:03 pm

Lou Gold wrote: ↑Mon Apr 10, 2023 7:12 pm Cleric,

Having not read Steiner or done any of his suggested practices, I offer no pro-or-con about SS. I do not practice Initiative Science. I have practiced Initiations in the form of environmental direct action, of Lakota SunDance, then in a combination of 25 years with Santo Daime ceremonies and nowadays living my medically imminent dying with as much active awareness as I can muster. I am here as a storyteller to testify that loving acceptance is a true liberator and that I and many others do not fit your straw-manned LSD analogy offered in the lead section of the above post. The asserted likeness does not fit me or many ranging in diversity across high-performing professionals and quite ordinary folks, some of whom are religious or not, some who drink an entheogen and some who do not. I do not seek to resolve the Great Mysteriousness; I seek to not get in the way of It changing me in ways I can but barely imagine. I do not proselytize for my path; I respect the diversity of people, ways and means. May all beings be well.

Lou, don't be offended. What I wrote was not in the least addressed to you. I only used it as an example (because there are such cases) that if we simply judge things by the amount of seismic activity they produce, we would have to conclude that those who go insane must have reached the highest realization of all.

Stranger wrote: ↑Mon Apr 10, 2023 10:05 pm This means there is nothing wrong with the way they understand oneness within the world of Manyness (as merging of thoughts or merging of boundaries), it is still all valid.

Cleric K wrote: ↑Mon Apr 10, 2023 11:25 pm

Stranger wrote: ↑Mon Apr 10, 2023 10:05 pm This means there is nothing wrong with the way they understand oneness within the world of Manyness (as merging of thoughts or merging of boundaries), it is still all valid.

OK, now I guess you'll upgrade your philosophy to include also the gradient of the green line, which encompasses the genesis and evolution of beings, yet say that beings along the gradient can either realize that they are One with the Divine or not. Thus those who go through Initiation understand from direct experience the gradient of being, since they experience how the Earthly ego-monad is weaved of the forces of the whole gradient, they experience how the Christ constitutes the core of theirs and all other beings, how they are united with His Light and Life that manifests in every thought, feeling and action, yet they still miss the important aspect that they are One with the Christ.

Cleric K wrote: ↑Mon Apr 10, 2023 11:25 pm OK, now I guess you'll upgrade your philosophy to include also the gradient of the green line, which encompasses the genesis and evolution of beings, yet say that beings along the gradient can either realize that they are One with the Divine or not. Thus those who go through Initiation understand from direct experience the gradient of being, since they experience how the Earthly ego-monad is weaved of the forces of the whole gradient, they experience how the Christ constitutes the core of theirs and all other beings, how they are united with His Light and Life that manifests in every thought, feeling and action, yet they still miss the important aspect that they are One with the Christ.

Stranger wrote: ↑Tue Apr 11, 2023 12:46 am Yes, it is still possible to understand the gradient of being but yet be unaware of the "transcendental" aspect of Oneness. However, when souls ascend to the knowledge of Christ's Light and Life through Theosis by ascending along the gradient, at some point they inevitably also reach to the Gnosis of the transcendental Oneness because it is an inherent aspect of the Christ's Light of Knowledge. It can happen in human form or after the threshold crossing, depending on the soul's maturity.

Lou Gold wrote: ↑Tue Apr 11, 2023 12:11 am Cleric, I'm lost in the lingo. Please indulge my curiosity. Do you think Thich Nhat Hanh missed "the important aspect that they are One with the Christ"? Perhaps you are familiar with his great Please Call Me by My True Names poem or his book Living Buddha Living Christ?

Cleric K wrote: ↑Tue Apr 11, 2023 9:26 am

Stranger wrote: ↑Tue Apr 11, 2023 12:46 am Yes, it is still possible to understand the gradient of being but yet be unaware of the "transcendental" aspect of Oneness. However, when souls ascend to the knowledge of Christ's Light and Life through Theosis by ascending along the gradient, at some point they inevitably also reach to the Gnosis of the transcendental Oneness because it is an inherent aspect of the Christ's Light of Knowledge. It can happen in human form or after the threshold crossing, depending on the soul's maturity.

OK, that's great. We can use the image with a tree and a vine:



The Tree of Life is the lawful gradient of the Divine, where all branches, leaves and cells work in harmony. The Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil takes its differentiated existence like a vine entwined around the tree. The difference is that the latter, even without knowing it, uses the Tree of Life for its support. Ultimately they both have Divine origin. Evil shouldn't be imagined as equal brother of the Divine though. The closer we get to the Godhead, the less possible it is to be unaware of the Tree of Life and the fact that it is our true essence (I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman). So the second vine can manifest only somewhat deeper in the gradient, where the darkness makes it possible to lose consciousness of the bigger picture.

On this we all agree and are under no illusion that we need to find our inner unity with the Tree of Life if we're really interested to work creatively for the Whole. I hope this places the question of Oneness on common ground.

But then we are faced with very practical questions. It is clear that simply identifying with the Tree of Life and basking in the feeling/intuition that we're One, is not enough. Then we're like the lazy servant who was given one talent and dug it into the ground instead of work with it. "Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit." So we have to find our place in the Tree of Life and bear fruit. Our Oneness with the Tree of Life is only the starting point, it is the realization that we have been given one talent which is our Divine Spark. From that point onwards we need positive knowledge. How do we tackle this problem? Do we patch up a convenient narrative out of cherry-picked NDE accounts, channeled sci-fi stories, suitable verses from the scriptures, all arranged such that they fit our 'divine' unquestionable preferences? Or we realize that the Divine has placed no boundaries for our ability to know Truth from within and thus we can start be understanding that with our thinking we already move as living sap through the reality of the Tree?

These [figs] all share a common "strangling" growth habit that is found in many tropical forest species, particularly of the genus Ficus.[1] This growth habit is an adaptation for growing in dark forests where the competition for light is intense. Strangler figs suck up the nutrients from its victims,[2] causing them to die eventually. These plants are hemiepiphytes, spending the first part of their life without rooting into the ground. Their seeds, often bird-dispersed, germinate in crevices atop other trees. These seedlings grow their roots downward and envelop the host tree while also growing upward to reach into the sunlight zone above the canopy.[3][4]

An original support tree can sometimes die, so that the strangler fig becomes a "columnar tree" with a hollow central core.[5] However, it is also believed that the strangler fig can help its support tree survive storms.[6]

Cleric K wrote: ↑Tue Apr 11, 2023 9:26 am But then we are faced with very practical questions. It is clear that simply identifying with the Tree of Life and basking in the feeling/intuition that we're One, is not enough. Then we're like the lazy servant who was given one talent and dug it into the ground instead of work with it. "Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit." So we have to find our place in the Tree of Life and bear fruit. Our Oneness with the Tree of Life is only the starting point, it is the realization that we have been given one talent which is our Divine Spark. From that point onwards we need positive knowledge. How do we tackle this problem? Do we patch up a convenient narrative out of cherry-picked NDE accounts, channeled sci-fi stories, suitable verses from the scriptures, all arranged such that they fit our 'divine' unquestionable preferences? Or we realize that the Divine has placed no boundaries for our ability to know Truth from within and thus we can start be understanding that with our thinking we already move as living sap through the reality of the Tree?