Consciousness, Civilization and Citizenship

[Soul_of_Shu]

prrrr-fect

[Lou Gold]

There are no rules against using lethal force to eradicate people whose actions you perceive to be a threat to the 'ecosystem'? That's news to me and doesn't sound like being a responsible Citizen in any sense of that word.

And you do realize how the thought/image of rodents has been widely used to characterize populations who are the targets of genocidal policies, right?

Ashvin,

If you give it that drift, I would surely agree with you. However, I know that was not my drift, For Santeri's drift, best to ask him.

[Lou Gold]

prrrr-fect

INDEED!

[Lou Gold]

The Capivara is a favorite rodent in Brazil.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capybara

[Soul_of_Shu]

The Capivara is a favorite rodent in Brazil.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capybara

Ever seen a mythical white one?

[Lou Gold]

White ones exist but I've never seen one.

https://www.google.com/search?q=white+c ... e&ie=UTF-8

[SanteriSatama]

I know what mice are... what or who are they are they representing in this analogy?

Am I missing something here? I understood that Santeri and Lou were literally referring to mice and mouse traps, and the ethical consideration of how to keep them from setting up house in an actual house ~ short of subjecting them to a painful death trap ~ where they are prone to possibly damaging the premises, including chewing up the electrical wire insulation for nesting material, creating fire hazards. My suggestion ... get a cat.

Good suggestion, but we got already a dog, who likes to chase cats. Somehow negotiating and making deal with the emuu* of mice could be a possibility, but not necessarily easy deal and doesn't somehow feel correct at the situation, as mistress of the house might have her own spiritual or what ever angle with the mice invasion.

*Emuu is our word for the guardian spirit of a species. A gardener friend made a deal with emuu of moles, which worked fine.

Internet says this about mice-totem: http://native-american-totems.com/anima ... use-totem/

[Lou Gold]

OK. I'd like to shift out of "Mice and Men" to considering a different approach to the story of citizenship.

Daniel Christian Wahl offers a hook:

In using the language of ‘old story’ and ‘new story’ we are in danger of thinking of this cultural transformation as a replacement of the old story by a new story. Such separation into dualistic opposites is in itself part of the ‘separation narrative’ of the ‘old story’. The ‘new story’ is not a complete negation of the currently dominant worldview. It includes this perspective but stops regarding it as the only perspective, opening up to the validity and necessity of multiple ways of knowing.

Embracing uncertainty and ambiguity makes us value multiple perspectives on our appropriate participation in complexity. These are perspectives that give value and validity not only to the ‘old story’ of separation, but also to the ‘ancient story’ of unity with the Earth and the cosmos. These are perspectives that may help us find a regenerative way of being human in deep intimacy, reciprocity and communion with life as a whole by becoming conscious co-creators of humanity’s ‘new story’.

[SanteriSatama]

There are no rules against using lethal force to eradicate people whose actions you perceive to be a threat to the 'ecosystem'? That's news to me and doesn't sound like being a responsible Citizen in any sense of that word.

Ashvin, my original question was really about concrete mice-human relation, but your interpretation/projection is also interesting. When I've talked with right-libertarians about their NAP (Non-Aggression-Principle), they say that NAP doesn't exclude self-defense. They also agree that pollution etc. threat to ecosystem which life depends from, is a NAP violation which justifies self-defense. This sounds fine in principle, practice gets very complicated as actions and their justifications refer to various interpretations of ecological house rules, where our knowledge is very incomplete already on the material and biological plane of causal loops, with more than enough devils in the details. Spiritual realms and evolution of consciousness on top of that... wide and deep epistemic humility leads to Gandhian justification of non-violence.

[Lou Gold]

Not deep but here's a popular-level report about linking past and present cultures in an ancient-future forest protection initiative:

https://thehill.com/changing-america/su ... wledge-are

And here's a little blog piece I wrote 10 years ago about an "Ancient-Future Path" that I was privileged to participate in with others in my old Oregon heart home:

https://lougold.blogspot.com/2010/07/th ... th-by.html