Just when I thought we're finally grasping at a common ground ...findingblanks wrote: ↑Mon Oct 14, 2024 5:50 pm "Do you feel that the spiritual world exists, that our true being is one with that world, and it is in principle knowable just like we know our head's interior, but at our present age any artistic forms (our spiritual-scientific thought forms are such art forms modulated over the greater flow) that reflect the intuitive activity of our higher self, are too cumbersome and one-sided, and thus they can only lead to illusionary or at best very limited understanding?"
I will say, and this is when I will TRY to mirror you way of communicating: the fact that you asked this question does indicate a deep blockage (numb?) in you and I wonder if and when you will awaken to this and see what caused you to ask with those presuppositions and inner curvatures.
Ick. I don't like inhabiting that modality. But I also know that there is value in trying other dance moves. Anyway, more in my style: I'm shocked you just asked me that! I've explictly addressed exactly that. No, I'm not shocked. I've seen this pattern; but, I do always trick myself when you say certain things that you really will remember you've said them. But the loop has a value that I think is more important that the content of these Teachings.
In response: nope. Like I've said, I see great value because it isn't 'very limited.' It's okay if we have a few hundred years of limited versions and attemps of Anthroposohia to find firm purchase. That's actually quite beautiful in my opinion and experience. An analogy is watching the Christian churches attempt to 'make space' for their Host. Some SUCKED even though they were trying. Other's distorted in some ways but really carried forward for a time. And the complex interweaving is what we'd expect.
Well, please try to see the picture that has been building out of your communications.
You say things like:
And:findingblanks wrote: ↑Thu Oct 10, 2024 9:42 pm In terms of Old Saturn and the rest; I haven't talked to anybody who would be explaining those to me unless they had read Steiner's core text and lectures. That doesn't mean they are useless. It doesn't mean they don't come from real interactions Steiner had with reality. But it does matter to me that the only people who teach me about those things wouldn't be teaching me about them unless they had read and meditated on Steiner's book. And the few who have claimed they can now independently verify everything Steiner said in OC, well, I've found them to be fairly unstable. That said, I know there are Anthroposphists who have small followings of people who claim they are directly verifying most of Steiner's cosmology. I don't want to debate which of these folks are crazy, who are frauds, and who are people who have some degree of intutions and have come to find deep meaning in the symbols, able to experience them dynamically.
It is clear from what you say, that you are concerned that Old Saturn, etc. are not things that are universally reported from all traditions but only from those emerging from the Thosophical stream (which emerged through Blavatsky as a re-introduction of ancient Oriental Wisdom in the West).findingblanks wrote: ↑Sun Oct 13, 2024 4:46 pm In each tradition, the student ends up experiencing the spiritual world much like their teacher told them they would. Outsiders call it pure fantasy. Insiders know they are having objective experience.
My whole art analogy was based on the above. I simply rephrased it.
"In each tradition, the student ends up experiencing the spiritual world much like their teacher told them they would"
became:
"The concern is now that those who are indoctrinated in sculpting will only grasp the spiritual world (thus their own true being) in Imaginations that look like sculptures. Others will grasp Imaginations that look like paintings, music, dancing, and so on."
Then I pointed out that at the vista of this, it's natural that one may feel more secure if they don't overcommit themselves to any one specific art form. And this you have confirmed many times. For example:
In fact, there could be so much more that in its light it may turn out that, for example, Old Sun, or the astral body, are not quite the things that we could grasp them to be, were we to approach things only through SS lens. As you have said, you are open to the possibility that there could be no such things as Saturn Sphere, Sun Sphere, etc. - at least not in the way SS speaks of them. As you have explained, this doesn't mean that Steiner didn't experience some thing, but only that through the artistic tools of his tradition it could be expressed only in such a form - spheres of inner conscious experience expanding into Cosmic scales.findingblanks wrote: ↑Sat Oct 12, 2024 3:16 pm My experience mixed with my understanding mixed with my studies indicate that the human experiences after death vary greatly, much more than Steiner indicated; however, I am 100% convinced that what Steiner described was drenched with reality from many different angles, and 'angels'
And I haven't said in the previous post anything that contradicts anything of what you have already said. In a way - I'm shocked that you are shocked because of my post
I was only trying to put things into a more manageable analogy so that we could continue further.My final question in the post was simply this: If none of the present spiritual schools offers a satisfactory way of reaching the spiritual world (and instead their pupils only repeat the shapes that their teacher has given them), what do you expect the future to bring? Do you have any vision of what should change in the way we approach the spiritual world if it has to cure itself of these one-sidednesses? We can make it even more specific: do you have any vision of what should change in you if you are to gain similar consciousness as your departed friend, such that not only you can feel his presence and tell that he exists in some spiritual condition but experience that condition, its dynamics and environment, by awakening here and now that part of your higher being through which you would otherwise live in that condition only after death?
This question doesn't presuppose anything about your views. I'm asking a perfectly honest and open question. What prevents human beings of today to live and be conscious in both the bodily spectrum and also in the one in which your friend moves right now? Is it that there are no reliable teachings (since they only make parrots of their students)? Is that man hasn't yet reached the required stage of evolution? Is it that in principle it will always be impossible to bridge these spectrums as long as we live in the bodily one?
