Philosophical Speculations

AshvinP wrote: ↑Wed Feb 07, 2024 5:31 pm Let me put it this way. If we are walking around the house, thinking about a million things, and stub our toe on some object, you would say this reflects a lack of presence-awareness, right? When navigating the sensory world, we often have an instinctive presence-awareness that keeps us from bumping into things all the time. We don't need to think intellectually about every single sensation we encounter to avoid such painful encounters, rather we have learned it as children through a sort of instinctive wisdom. The latter maintains a certain level of presence-awareness in the sensory world without the intellect intervening.

Well, what you are describing is the span of attention, but not the presence-awareness in a sense that Rupert is referring to. Usually in our mundane state of consciousness, be it in children or adults, we completely disregard the presence-awareness.

Would you agree and say that we can further advance to cognitively experience the instinctive wisdom that maintains this presence-awareness, which we unconsciously learned as children? If so, then could such an experience do anything but further enrich and enhance our presence-awareness? What is the goal of being present-aware, in any case? Is it simply a matter of inner peace and satisfaction, or something of much more significance for human and Earthly destiny?

First of all, it is important because it is the aspect of truth, of our true nature (same is the nature of reality). So, if we want to know the truth to the best of our abilities, we cannot disregard the presence-awareness aspect of it. Second, it is a very efficient and expedient way to break through the egoic dualistic bubble in which we habitually abide in our mundane way of living and thinking. This is because the experiential realization of presence-awareness brings the experiential realization of the underlying unity of the universe (because everything in the universe shares the same fundamental nature of Presence-Awareness-Thinking-Willing). As a result, the illusion of separation with its egoic bubble dissolves naturally (without the efforts of "ego trying to destroy the ego"), and then love and compassion towards the living universe develops naturally, and we develop the ability to see the reality more clearly without the obstructions and limitations of our egoic mind.

But as I said before, I don't believe that just passively abiding in presence-awareness alone is a sufficient spiritual practice, and I agree with Steiner that the development of the active aspects of ATW, its higher-levels of intuitive and imaginative abilities of thinking, is also of key importance.

AshvinP wrote: ↑Wed Feb 07, 2024 5:31 pm I don't think it will be of much use to abstractly try and explain why "Thinking and Willing" in Anthroposophical terms is not at all what people imagine it to be, i.e. the intellectual voice, mental picturing, and daily intents. These are only the shadows or outermost circumference of Thinking-Willing which is World-Sustaining and -Creating activity. But I don't want to get into some abstract debate about whether an additional element is needed to reach the 'true ground' of Awareness.

Let me put it this way. If we are walking around the house, thinking about a million things, and stub our toe on some object, you would say this reflects a lack of presence-awareness, right? When navigating the sensory world, we often have an instinctive presence-awareness that keeps us from bumping into things all the time. We don't need to think intellectually about every single sensation we encounter to avoid such painful encounters, rather we have learned it as children through a sort of instinctive wisdom. The latter maintains a certain level of presence-awareness in the sensory world without the intellect intervening.

Would you agree and say that we can further advance to cognitively experience the instinctive wisdom that maintains this presence-awareness, which we unconsciously learned as children? If so, then could such an experience do anything but further enrich and enhance our presence-awareness? What is the goal of being present-aware, in any case? Is it simply a matter of inner peace and satisfaction, or something of much more significance for human and Earthly destiny?

What you are detailing here is a method to succeed in the world, from not walking into walls, learning to play a musical instrument, earning a living, etc.
There is certainly a value in success, but it is not realizing one's true nature. It is not increasing familiarity with Being.

Stranger wrote: ↑Wed Feb 07, 2024 5:49 pm Well, what you are describing is the span of attention, but not the presence-awareness in a sense that Rupert is referring to. Usually in our mundane state of consciousness, be it in children or adults, we completely disregard the presence-awareness.

PS: Well, to be more precise, in our mundane mode we may have a sense of presence and awareness if we pay attention to it, but we also have a sense-idea that we "own it", that it's just some kind of quality that belongs to "me" ("I am aware, I am thinking"), just like in the Cartesian "I think therefore I am". In other words, we think that there exists a separate "me" that is present, thinks and has awareness. We do not usually realize that the presence-awareness-thinking-willing is the fundamental nature that creates all sensations, feelings and ideas, including the sense and idea of "me", so it is not "me" who is present, aware and thinking, but it is the other way around: it's the presence-awareness-thinking-willing that creates the idea of "me".

lorenzop wrote: ↑Wed Feb 07, 2024 6:10 pm

AshvinP wrote: ↑Wed Feb 07, 2024 5:31 pm I don't think it will be of much use to abstractly try and explain why "Thinking and Willing" in Anthroposophical terms is not at all what people imagine it to be, i.e. the intellectual voice, mental picturing, and daily intents. These are only the shadows or outermost circumference of Thinking-Willing which is World-Sustaining and -Creating activity. But I don't want to get into some abstract debate about whether an additional element is needed to reach the 'true ground' of Awareness.

Let me put it this way. If we are walking around the house, thinking about a million things, and stub our toe on some object, you would say this reflects a lack of presence-awareness, right? When navigating the sensory world, we often have an instinctive presence-awareness that keeps us from bumping into things all the time. We don't need to think intellectually about every single sensation we encounter to avoid such painful encounters, rather we have learned it as children through a sort of instinctive wisdom. The latter maintains a certain level of presence-awareness in the sensory world without the intellect intervening.

Would you agree and say that we can further advance to cognitively experience the instinctive wisdom that maintains this presence-awareness, which we unconsciously learned as children? If so, then could such an experience do anything but further enrich and enhance our presence-awareness? What is the goal of being present-aware, in any case? Is it simply a matter of inner peace and satisfaction, or something of much more significance for human and Earthly destiny?

What you are detailing here is a method to succeed in the world, from not walking into walls, learning to play a musical instrument, earning a living, etc.
There is certainly a value in success, but it is not realizing one's true nature. It is not increasing familiarity with Being.

This is the implicit duality we keep referring to. It is imagined that increasing familiarity with Being shouldn't also be intimately related to how we lucidly orient to the sensory world and develop skills, talents, capacities, virtues, etc. that will manifest the limitless potential of Being in that world. By declaring the latter nothing more than pursuit of the 'golden calf', we introduce a schism into the very structure of Being. It is the same schism that is introduced by saying Being has no concern for humanity's moral intuition.

As indicated in my footnote, there is a real paucity of imagination here, for you and Eugene. Because we have become so conditioned to life in the 'mundane realm', we have lost all capacity to imagine just how much more spiritualized and harmonious that realm can be. We settle for the bare minimum of breaking through the egoic bubble. This is only the very beginning of the spiritualization process, but it is confused for an end-itself by those who lack higher organs of perception or who refuse to even consider their possibility and probe their reality through living thinking.

Eugene wrote:First of all, it is important because it is the aspect of truth, of our true nature (same is the nature of reality). So, if we want to know the truth to the best of our abilities, we cannot disregard the presence-awareness aspect of it. Second, it is a very efficient and expedient way to break through the egoic dualistic bubble in which we habitually abide in our mundane way of living and thinking. This is because the experiential realization of presence-awareness brings the experiential realization of the underlying unity of the universe (because everything in the universe shares the same fundamental nature of Presence-Awareness-Thinking-Willing). As a result, the illusion of separation with its egoic bubble dissolves naturally (without the efforts of "ego trying to destroy the ego"), and then love and compassion towards the living universe develops naturally, and we develop the ability to see the reality more clearly without the obstructions and limitations of our egoic mind.

But as I said before, I don't believe that just passively abiding in presence-awareness alone is a sufficient spiritual practice, and I agree with Steiner that the development of the active aspects of ATW, its higher-levels of intuitive and imaginative abilities of thinking, is also of key importance.

Eugene adds the caveat that presence-awareness isn't sufficient and we should also add in the higher cognitive practice, but I can't imagine this concretely means anything. Why? Because he also wrote this to you - "If the "direct method" alone works for you without any reinforcements then go for it."

So which is it, Eugene, is the 'direct method' sufficient or not? Is it sufficient for developing the love and compassion to simply treat each other more kindly? Then what is the purpose of the intuitive and imaginative abilities of thinking? Let's remember, St. Francis of Assisi didn't simply go around using the medicines of his time to heal people, but drew on completely unsuspected spiritual forces for healing through the Christ impulse. These healing forces are nothing other than the higher cognitive forces. They are one and the same thing. If we don't arbitrarily segregate these forces into exploring the 'dual realm' or 'mundane realm', because we fundamentally misunderstand their nature, then we too can participate in channeling those healing forces into the karmic organism of humanity.

Federica wrote: ↑Wed Feb 07, 2024 5:26 pm

Lou Gold wrote: ↑Wed Feb 07, 2024 3:23 pm I'm glad you are exploring "pictorial thinking." I love the art medium called "encaustics", which involves hot flowing wax. Mostly it's used in a conventionally painterly way. I used to use it to explore what I did not have words for and its evolving into forms I recognized. It's still hard to give words to it all. Perhaps you can see the process in this old painting of mine, which I recently turned into a monochrome titled "Liquid Light"?

Pictorial thinking means creating future pictures to signal our intention to actively and consciously take part in the cosmic interconnected experiential flow with our intentions. Painting techniques could be a means to crystallize a snapshot of that activity in the sensory spectrum, but if the painting does not stem from some level of self-centered awareness of the interconnectedness, the only thing it would crystallize is, at best, the blind invocation of a wondering and wandering soul, and at worse a closed-circle sensory-sensual escape.

Interestingly, the original full color version of my encaustic, made about 20 years ago, was made with an entry level conscious awareness of the process whereas the monochrome and the title emerged recently and seemed more developed. Perhaps this is a symptom of my changed way of thinking in my spiritual evolution.

Stranger wrote: ↑Wed Feb 07, 2024 6:28 pm

Stranger wrote: ↑Wed Feb 07, 2024 5:49 pm Well, what you are describing is the span of attention, but not the presence-awareness in a sense that Rupert is referring to. Usually in our mundane state of consciousness, be it in children or adults, we completely disregard the presence-awareness.

PS: Well, to be more precise, in our mundane mode we may have a sense of presence and awareness if we pay attention to it, but we also have a sense-idea that we "own it", that it's just some kind of quality that belongs to "me" ("I am aware, I am thinking"), just like in the Cartesian "I think therefore I am". In other words, we think that there exists a separate "me" that is present, thinks and has awareness. We do not usually realize that the presence-awareness-thinking-willing is the fundamental nature that creates all sensations, feelings and ideas, including the sense and idea of "me", so it is not "me" who is present, aware and thinking, but it is the other way around: it's the presence-awareness-thinking-willing that creates the idea of "me".

I appreciate your noble and insightful efforts but I think that directionality (bottom-up, top-down, part-to-whole, whole-to-part, etc) still expresses a dualism rooted in language. The only way I've found to escape this is to be quiet, which is very hard work for me.

lorenzop wrote: ↑Wed Feb 07, 2024 4:14 pm

Federica wrote: ↑Wed Feb 07, 2024 3:30 pm Naturally there's not much of a concrete, actual *way* in recommending to "experientially realize the reality of the spiritual activity of the egoless Aware-Thinking-Feeling (ATF) as the source behind the world of our thoughts, feelings and perceptions".

So how do you go from this statement, or declaration, to a real way, one that can really be walked, to make progress every day? What are your concrete experiential methods?

Anyone can inspect their own experience and locate a sense of 'being present, being aware', a sense of 'being present, being aware' that underlies all thinking, sensations, emotions, perceptions, etc. That's it, 'being present, being aware', that's our true nature. We can make it as complicated as we wish, we can wrap in up in a specific tradition or religion, but it's a simple thing.
Also, if we inspect our experience, we can find this 'being present, being aware' can be overshadowed or lost during experience; perceiving, dreaming, thinking and even sleeping. The 'goal' is to not lose or have this sense of 'being present, being aware' overshadowed or lost during experience.
How?
It doesn't do any good to banish or push away experiences. It doesn't accomplish anything to smash or negate the ego. What we do is: We bring in a second element, we infuse more 'being present, being aware'. This does not require belief, intellectual prowess or initiation.
More Being.
We know when we are making progress because there is more a sense of 'being present, being aware', and less overshadowing of Being.

You can surely slip below consciousness in this way, Lorenzo.
If you are happy with seeking a muffled sense of “being present being aware”, made of nothingness and floating in nothingness, then be it. As bonus, you can surely skip all the tough questions about reality and our part in it. Also, no requirements to recognize ideals or to pursue any tasks if they don't serve your preferences.

The instinctual and personal self just anchors its arbitrary features into unconsciousness even more, swimming in the illusion that the "egoic self" can simply be dropped. Welcome to cloud cuckoo land.

Stranger wrote: ↑Wed Feb 07, 2024 4:17 pm

My question was: what are the steps of continuous spiritual practice according to you?

It's a whole different discussion, and there is not a single universal "right" path of steps, a but a large variety of them depending on individual level of development and individual predispositions and circumstances. The esoteric spiritual traditions are rich with these practical methods, what we need to do is to study and apply them in practice. Some of these practices are more efficient and expedient, and some are less efficient. The way I do it is to try them and see how they practically work in my own circumstances.

You can do it in a simple and straightforward way as Lorenzo described above, or add to it other methods (devotional, meditative, prayer, Steiner's developmental exercises, visualizations etc) to reinforce the practice and bring more fuel to it. The problem is that our habitual rudimentary thinking patterns (egoic, dualistic, mundane) over a long period of doing them and training in them became very resilient and persistent to such an extent that we became enslaved to them. Whatever practice we use, it needs to be as resilient and consistent as these patterns to make it work, otherwise they will keep obscuring the realization of ATW (our true nature) and obstructing our spiritual development.

No it's not a whole different discussion. This mindset reveals the core issue - and duality - from yet another angle. Preliminary philosophical speculation to "clear the (intellectual) way" is arbitrarily kept separate from the direct inner experience that should realize that same way. Then, the absolute impossibility to connect the dots and experience true experiential depth, in interconnection with the inner layers of reality, is 'remedied' by the smoke and mirrors of the many paths: just pick the one that works for you, mix and match the "tools", both/and, and so on and so forth.

That's a dead end, Eugene.
You are holding yourself stuck in an absolute impossibility of making progress. Please unstuck yourself.

Federica wrote: ↑Wed Feb 07, 2024 7:23 pm

lorenzop wrote: ↑Wed Feb 07, 2024 4:14 pm

Federica wrote: ↑Wed Feb 07, 2024 3:30 pm Naturally there's not much of a concrete, actual *way* in recommending to "experientially realize the reality of the spiritual activity of the egoless Aware-Thinking-Feeling (ATF) as the source behind the world of our thoughts, feelings and perceptions".

So how do you go from this statement, or declaration, to a real way, one that can really be walked, to make progress every day? What are your concrete experiential methods?

Anyone can inspect their own experience and locate a sense of 'being present, being aware', a sense of 'being present, being aware' that underlies all thinking, sensations, emotions, perceptions, etc. That's it, 'being present, being aware', that's our true nature. We can make it as complicated as we wish, we can wrap in up in a specific tradition or religion, but it's a simple thing.
Also, if we inspect our experience, we can find this 'being present, being aware' can be overshadowed or lost during experience; perceiving, dreaming, thinking and even sleeping. The 'goal' is to not lose or have this sense of 'being present, being aware' overshadowed or lost during experience.
How?
It doesn't do any good to banish or push away experiences. It doesn't accomplish anything to smash or negate the ego. What we do is: We bring in a second element, we infuse more 'being present, being aware'. This does not require belief, intellectual prowess or initiation.
More Being.
We know when we are making progress because there is more a sense of 'being present, being aware', and less overshadowing of Being.

You can surely slip below consciousness in this way, Lorenzo.
If you are happy with seeking a muffled sense of “being present being aware”, made of nothingness and floating in nothingness, then be it. As bonus, you can surely skip all the tough questions about reality and our part in it. Also, no requirements to recognize ideals or to pursue any tasks if they don't serve your preferences.

The instinctual and personal self just anchors its arbitrary features into unconsciousness even more, swimming in the illusion that the "egoic self" can simply be dropped. Welcome to cloud cuckoo land.

Gosh dang it. Joni Mitchell's song just got triggered again for me so here's another online version from 2022 (when the song was 54 years old).

AshvinP wrote: ↑Wed Feb 07, 2024 6:41 pm Eugene adds the caveat that presence-awareness isn't sufficient and we should also add in the higher cognitive practice, but I can't imagine this concretely means anything. Why? Because he also wrote this to you - "If the "direct method" alone works for you without any reinforcements then go for it."

So which is it, Eugene, is the 'direct method' sufficient or not? Is it sufficient for developing the love and compassion to simply treat each other more kindly? Then what is the purpose of the intuitive and imaginative abilities of thinking? Let's remember, St. Francis of Assisi didn't simply go around using the medicines of his time to heal people, but drew on completely unsuspected spiritual forces for healing through the Christ impulse. These healing forces are nothing other than the higher cognitive forces. They are one and the same thing. If we don't arbitrarily segregate these forces into exploring the 'dual realm' or 'mundane realm', because we fundamentally misunderstand their nature, then we too can participate in channeling those healing forces into the karmic organism of humanity.

It is implied that the practice of abiding in presence-awareness, once it leads one beyond the bubble of the egoic separate self, should naturally unfold and lead to the discovery of the creative active aspects of ATW inseparable from the passive aspects of it (presence-awareness). For example, this is what happens in the Buddhist practice that goes through the cycle of contemplative stages (abiding in presence-awareness passively) and active stages of tantric practices, and eventually unfold the active-contemplative state of "enlightened activity" at which the healing and higher cognitive spiritual forces naturally unfold (they are called "prajnaparamita" - the "highest wisdom", and "bodhicitta" - wisdom-compassion). But of course, if a particular tradition or practice is only focused on the passive abiding in presence-awareness, there is a risk of misinterpreting it and becoming stuck in this passive mode (often called "blissing-out"). If we look at the spiritual traditions of world's religions, most of them have this integration of passive contemplative inward-going practices and active outward-going practices of the works of love, compassion and healing.

But in reality it is hard to focus on different aspects of practice all at once, and often better do it stage by stage while focusing on each stage one at a time. So, that's why I said to Lorenzo that if the "direct method" alone works for him and inspires him at this stage then he can just focus on that. At the same time, I did say that this method alone is insufficient from the broader perspective.