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Re: GA 13 - Rudolf Steiner's "Secret Science in Outline"

Posted: Sun Jul 14, 2024 1:34 pm
by AshvinP
Güney27 wrote: Sun Jul 14, 2024 10:44 am Ashvin,

I find the book helpful, because it is written in a practical way and in a theoretical.
He gives exercises and explain why they are fruitful for one’s inner development.
I think BA become successful with these exercises himself in order to teach them.
One thing I like is that he emphasizes he’s exercises as tools for spiritual investigation.

I found it quite helpful how he explained that the brain sacrifice higher forces, in order to give us a stable orientation in the earthly realm.
He used the blackhole metaphor to give the reader an illustrative example to think of the brain.

I will re-read his book and maybe buy another books he written.


Here is a video about his book and the exercises:

Thanks, Guney. I agree he gives many helpful metaphors and descriptions for spiritual experiences and relations.

I notice the YT channel also has some lectures by Ben-Aharon himself, so those should be interesting to watch.

I also want to share some really important and well-expressed excerpts from his other book I am reading (linked before). I think it's very relevant to what has been discussed on this thread so far in terms of resisting normal mental and psychic habits. It's probably especially relevant in my area now that there has been an attempted assassination of Trump and passions will be fueled going into and after the elections.


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Re: GA 13 - Rudolf Steiner's "Secret Science in Outline"

Posted: Sun Jul 14, 2024 5:40 pm
by Federica
AshvinP wrote: Sun Jul 14, 2024 1:34 pm I think it's very relevant to what has been discussed on this thread so far in terms of resisting normal mental and psychic habits. It's probably especially relevant in my area now that there has been an attempted assassination of Trump and passions will be fueled going into and after the elections.
I think it is relevant in all areas, since these things (minus the high-level political overlay) happen every day, in all areas. This appears to be precisely what the text invites the reader to in-see (a verb of the Swedish language).

Re: GA 13 - Rudolf Steiner's "Secret Science in Outline"

Posted: Tue Jul 16, 2024 6:08 pm
by AshvinP
Incidentally, I just came across this Substack article from Jonathan Rowson on... 'improvisation' as a spiritual practice : ) I think it has some helpful points and quotes to contemplate.

***

I can’t currently find the source for the quotation, and I think it might be Cynthia Bourgealt, but I recently came across the line:

“An omniscient God cannot laugh.”

Some see God in austere terms, and I can’t speak for every believer, but personally I can’t get too excited about any God - existent or imaginary - that doesn’t laugh, either in some literal physical sense or through some mysterious divine cosmic grammar.

Every time we laugh we step out of a structure, and laughter can be thought of as a low-level everyday spiritual experience, a glimpse of the freedom that is part of our true nature.

So that line about omniscience knocked my head back in a good way and is relevant to improvisation's power. There is something about not knowing what is going to happen next that is fundamental to the human experience, and it is a critical element of humour, which, along with text, technology, long childhoods, and a weakness for self-destruction, is what marks us out as a species.

Not knowing everything is a precondition for finding something funny because otherwise there would no subversion, surprise, absurdity, excitement, or spontaneity. So assuming we want God to exist, we probably don’t want her to know everything.

Improvisation is fun and rewarding, but it’s more than that too - it’s a method of inquiry into the moment. And why does the moment matter? Because in a sense now is all we ever really have to work with. While we can interrogate nowness with meditation we can also inquire into it in more socially interactive and playful ways, and indeed we may have to.

Jean Gebser highlighted that our current mental-rational structure of consciousness is in its deficient mode, which is partly why the world appears to be becoming less intelligible. He said that the emerging Integral structure of consciousness would have the character of time-freedom and Perspectiva explored this in our work on temporics last October.

I believe improvisation gives us a taste of the challenge is to refocus on the question of where the future resides in us, and there’s a lovely quote that captures this:

The future enters into us, in order to transform itself in us, long before it happens.- Rainier Maria Rilke, Letters to a Young Poet (1929)

Gebser called this latency and it refers to things that are real but concealed and yet are full of potential.

As we free ourselves from our attachment to crisis we pay more and better attention to what crisis thinking may unhelpfully perpetuate or occlude. For instance, we may start to attend better to what Bonnitta Roy calls ‘complex potential states’, Nora Bateson calls Aphanipoiesis and Indra Adnan calls Ada! These are different ideas, though I don’t think it’s entirely incidental that they come from women, and draw attention to the value of what is latent, unseen, and yet perceptible through the kinds of subtle and appreciative inquiry that are precluded by the ‘I-can-fix-it’ crisis mentality.

A key part of grasping the reality of complex potential is to realise that it resides in the perception of a different quality of time.

I’m quoting from Bonnitta Roy’s chapter in Dispatches from a Time Between Worlds where she references Donna Haraway’s emphasis on Kainos (not Kairos!) in Staying with the Trouble(2016).

The Greeks had two words for time:

Note the contrast with Kairos being ‘saturated with resonance and meaning’ while Kainos is ‘the sense of thick ongoing presence’. Later Bonnie says: “Kainos means each moment is replete, and precious and precarious.”

I’m fine with Chronos, and I’m all for Kairos, but Kainos is just as important, and today perhaps more so, because it gets us beyond the sequential limits of Chronos, and the Weight of Kairos, back to the lightness and potential that can lead to the spirit of freshness and renewal through which a transformed world might be brought into being.

Again quoting from Bonnie’s chapter:
Gebser called for a new kind of statement “to make the strength of spirit perceptible” to express the energies of the psyche, the self, the soul and the culture. He declared that philosophy based on abstract representations was coming to an end and that the new form would render spirit transparent to us, would allow it to enter our awareness directly. Gebser experienced his own time as in between worlds. He understood the need to address the inherent fatalism at the heart of our relationship with time
At the end of Bonnitta’s chapter, she puts this poetically, and indicates that the heart of our historical challenge may be to become better improvisers:
What then must we do? We are the people to create enduring acts of inspiration and imagination for others to find when this world finally comes to an end. These will be seeds that can grow in the next world, but not in ours. We will never see them bloom. It would be like planting a Tamarack in the Pleistocene for someone today. We are the people to do this religiously, but not with messianic fervor, rather with loving care, trusting that our purpose is not of this world and for us, but of the next world and for them.Who are we, then, these people assembled at the end of the world?
I believe there’s an important relationship between the practice of improvisation, the experience of Kainos, and the vitality of regenerative culture, and this is something we’ll be exploring at this year’s festival. I am not saying that improvisation is the only way to renew our relationship to time, nor that it automatically saves the world from itself, but I believe it’s a great place to start.

Re: GA 13 - Rudolf Steiner's "Secret Science in Outline"

Posted: Tue Jul 16, 2024 7:49 pm
by Federica
AshvinP wrote: Tue Jul 16, 2024 6:08 pm Incidentally, I just came across this Substack article from Jonathan Rowson on... 'improvisation' as a spiritual practice : ) I think it has some helpful points and quotes to contemplate.
Ashvin,

I find this text fragmentary, difficult to follow (or maybe that's what improvisational means, and I'm not getting it). I believe there is even a crucially missing quote - the one that, I suppose, presented the various Greek words for time. There is little about improvisation - I don't get how the last quote is supposed to be about it - and it seems to require some knowledge of Gebser and Roy, without which the references remain unclear (to me). What are the points worth of contemplation, according to you? By the way, Steiner seems to have only occasionally referred to improvisation, mainly to mean that something was hastend, unprepared.

Re: GA 13 - Rudolf Steiner's "Secret Science in Outline"

Posted: Tue Jul 16, 2024 8:50 pm
by AshvinP
Federica wrote: Tue Jul 16, 2024 7:49 pm
AshvinP wrote: Tue Jul 16, 2024 6:08 pm Incidentally, I just came across this Substack article from Jonathan Rowson on... 'improvisation' as a spiritual practice : ) I think it has some helpful points and quotes to contemplate.
Ashvin,

I find this text fragmentary, difficult to follow (or maybe that's what improvisational means, and I'm not getting it). I believe there is even a crucially missing quote - the one that, I suppose, presented the various Greek words for time. There is little about improvisation - I don't get how the last quote is supposed to be about it - and it seems to require some knowledge of Gebser and Roy, without which the references remain unclear (to me). What are the points worth of contemplation, according to you? By the way, Steiner seems to have only occasionally referred to improvisation, mainly to mean that something was hastend, unprepared.

Visit the link I provided and I think the connection will be clear. It features a guest poster who is literally an improv performer and relates to a festival they are hosting at which "a key part of the praxis is improvisation".

I think it's also clear how Jonathan's addendum fits in with what I quoted from Kuhlewind on the other thread:

We can also have some idea of a quite distinct will, all too clear and distinct, in fact, for our normal consciousness. The “dark” will takes hold of our bodily actions, and it cannot be consciously followed. But when we think very concentratedly, improvisationally, how do we do it? We consciously determine what we will think about, then we let thinking itself take over, while we calm our subjective willfulness as much as possible. There is a particular kind of will hidden within this will that we have allowed to take control. I do not think a particular thing; I don't even know what thought will come up in the next moment. The will in this improvisational thinking is at one with the thinking itself. It is a thought will and is not willed by me. In pure, concentrated thinking, there is always this superconscious will. In this will, in turn, the feeling for what is evident (which propels thinking) also lies hidden. Can I say that this will is my own? Not at all; I merely set it in motion, and I am not even conscious of how I do so.

Here he is talking about the concrete supersensible experience. Of course, if someone is unable to mine value for their orientation to superconscious activity from the article or from Kuhlewind, they are free to ignore them. It's simply a few more angles on the things we are constantly discussing here about revealing the latent potential of our creative spiritual activity through modern initiation. Or as Rilke put it, "The future enters into us, in order to transform itself in us, long before it happens." This quote from Jonathan is something we have especially discussed recently on the forum in terms of 'splitting the now moment' and similar ideas:

Improvisation is fun and rewarding, but it’s more than that too - it’s a method of inquiry into the moment. And why does the moment matter? Because in a sense now is all we ever really have to work with. While we can interrogate nowness with meditation we can also inquire into it in more socially interactive and playful ways, and indeed we may have to.

My search for "improvisation" on the Archive yields 3 references, only one of which was spoken by Steiner, and which referred to elaborating details in legends from their sources in the Mysteries. The search for "improvise" yields one where Steiner is telling people to improvise a visual form to interpret a poem:

https://rsarchive.org/Lectures/GA279/En ... 01p02.html
Let us in the first place interpret the poem in such a way that we bring out the story, that we emphasize the thought-element. Try, therefore, to improvise a form consisting of straight lines, avoiding as far as possible all rounded movements.

Re: GA 13 - Rudolf Steiner's "Secret Science in Outline"

Posted: Tue Jul 16, 2024 9:26 pm
by Federica
AshvinP wrote: Tue Jul 16, 2024 8:50 pm
Federica wrote: Tue Jul 16, 2024 7:49 pm
AshvinP wrote: Tue Jul 16, 2024 6:08 pm Incidentally, I just came across this Substack article from Jonathan Rowson on... 'improvisation' as a spiritual practice : ) I think it has some helpful points and quotes to contemplate.
Ashvin,

I find this text fragmentary, difficult to follow (or maybe that's what improvisational means, and I'm not getting it). I believe there is even a crucially missing quote - the one that, I suppose, presented the various Greek words for time. There is little about improvisation - I don't get how the last quote is supposed to be about it - and it seems to require some knowledge of Gebser and Roy, without which the references remain unclear (to me). What are the points worth of contemplation, according to you? By the way, Steiner seems to have only occasionally referred to improvisation, mainly to mean that something was hastend, unprepared.

Visit the link I provided and I think the connection will be clear. It features a guest poster who is literally an improv performer and relates to a festival they are hosting at which "a key part of the praxis is improvisation".

I think it's also clear how Jonathan's addendum fits in with what I quoted from Kuhlewind on the other thread:

We can also have some idea of a quite distinct will, all too clear and distinct, in fact, for our normal consciousness. The “dark” will takes hold of our bodily actions, and it cannot be consciously followed. But when we think very concentratedly, improvisationally, how do we do it? We consciously determine what we will think about, then we let thinking itself take over, while we calm our subjective willfulness as much as possible. There is a particular kind of will hidden within this will that we have allowed to take control. I do not think a particular thing; I don't even know what thought will come up in the next moment. The will in this improvisational thinking is at one with the thinking itself. It is a thought will and is not willed by me. In pure, concentrated thinking, there is always this superconscious will. In this will, in turn, the feeling for what is evident (which propels thinking) also lies hidden. Can I say that this will is my own? Not at all; I merely set it in motion, and I am not even conscious of how I do so.

Here he is talking about the concrete supersensible experience. Of course, if someone is unable to mine value for their orientation to superconscious activity from the article or from Kuhlewind, they are free to ignore them. It's simply a few more angles on the things we are constantly discussing here about revealing the latent potential of our creative spiritual activity through modern initiation. Or as Rilke put it, "The future enters into us, in order to transform itself in us, long before it happens." This quote from Jonathan is something we have especially discussed recently on the forum in terms of 'splitting the now moment' and similar ideas:

Improvisation is fun and rewarding, but it’s more than that too - it’s a method of inquiry into the moment. And why does the moment matter? Because in a sense now is all we ever really have to work with. While we can interrogate nowness with meditation we can also inquire into it in more socially interactive and playful ways, and indeed we may have to.

My search for "improvisation" on the Archive yields 3 references, only one of which was spoken by Steiner, and which referred to elaborating details in legends from their sources in the Mysteries. The search for "improvise" yields one where Steiner is telling people to improvise a visual form to interpret a poem:

https://rsarchive.org/Lectures/GA279/En ... 01p02.html
Let us in the first place interpret the poem in such a way that we bring out the story, that we emphasize the thought-element. Try, therefore, to improvise a form consisting of straight lines, avoiding as far as possible all rounded movements.

I think what Kuhlewind calls improvisational thinking in meditation, in the quote, has nothing to do with the "socially interactive, playful ways" to improvise described in the Substack post. Yes it's fun and I don't have any problem with that play, but it's also the negation of disciplined spiritual work, and in this sense, not a very apppropriate idea for our times to put out there, as an alternative spiritual practice. First because it will let all the subjective and very personal soul characteristics and weak points come to unscrutinized expression, rather than the suprawill Kuhlewind refers to, and second because it comforts people in thinking that having fun improvising is a proper spiritual path, a "method to inquire the now". Looks like the risk is similar to the one inherent in the psychedelic pictures: what would one do with the outcomes of improvisation to understand them, beyond convincing oneself that those are pearls of beauty and wisdom? So I still disagree it's a useful characterization of the necessary efforts of will required by the times.

PS. In the archive I prefer to search for improvis* so everything with that root pops up, including the occurrences of "improvised". Even better to do so in the true, comprehensive, Steiner Archive:
https://steiner.wiki/index.php?search=i ... fulltext=1
There seems to be nothing about the supposed value of improvisation as a spiritual practice.

Re: GA 13 - Rudolf Steiner's "Secret Science in Outline"

Posted: Tue Jul 16, 2024 9:52 pm
by AshvinP
Federica wrote: Tue Jul 16, 2024 9:26 pm I think what Kuhlewind calls improvisational thinking in meditation, in the quote, has nothing to do with the "socially interactive, playful ways" to improvise described in the Substack post. Yes it's fun and I don't have any problem with that play, but it's also the negation of disciplined spiritual work, and in this sense, not a very apppropriate idea for our times to put out there, as an alternative spiritual science. First because it will let all the subjective and very personal soul characteristics and weak points come to unscrutinized expression, rather than the suprawill Kuhlewind refers to, and second because it comforts people in thinking that having fun improvising is a proper spiritual path, a "method to inquire the now". Looks like the risk is similar to the one inherent in the psychedelic pictures: what would one do with the outcomes of improvisation to understand them, beyond convincing oneself that those are pearls of beauty and wisdom? So I still disagree it's a timely characterization of the necessary efforts of will required by the times.

PS. In the archive I prefer to search for improvis* so everything with that root pops up, including the occurrences of "improvised".

Ok, Federica, just ignore it then, these considerations are not for you.

Re: GA 13 - Rudolf Steiner's "Secret Science in Outline"

Posted: Tue Jul 16, 2024 9:54 pm
by AshvinP
Federica wrote: Tue Jul 16, 2024 9:26 pm PS. In the archive I prefer to search for improvis* so everything with that root pops up, including the occurrences of "improvised". Even better to do so in the true, comprehensive, Steiner Archive:
https://steiner.wiki/index.php?search=i ... fulltext=1
There seems to be nothing about the supposed value of improvisation as a spiritual practice.

Yes, I notice the most references are to how often Steiner himself was improvising in his lectures, but I suppose we can learn nothing useful from that :)

Re: GA 13 - Rudolf Steiner's "Secret Science in Outline"

Posted: Tue Jul 16, 2024 10:09 pm
by Federica
AshvinP wrote: Tue Jul 16, 2024 9:52 pm
Federica wrote: Tue Jul 16, 2024 9:26 pm I think what Kuhlewind calls improvisational thinking in meditation, in the quote, has nothing to do with the "socially interactive, playful ways" to improvise described in the Substack post. Yes it's fun and I don't have any problem with that play, but it's also the negation of disciplined spiritual work, and in this sense, not a very apppropriate idea for our times to put out there, as an alternative spiritual science. First because it will let all the subjective and very personal soul characteristics and weak points come to unscrutinized expression, rather than the suprawill Kuhlewind refers to, and second because it comforts people in thinking that having fun improvising is a proper spiritual path, a "method to inquire the now". Looks like the risk is similar to the one inherent in the psychedelic pictures: what would one do with the outcomes of improvisation to understand them, beyond convincing oneself that those are pearls of beauty and wisdom? So I still disagree it's a timely characterization of the necessary efforts of will required by the times.

PS. In the archive I prefer to search for improvis* so everything with that root pops up, including the occurrences of "improvised".

Ok, Federica, just ignore it then, these considerations are not for you.
It's not about me ignoring it or not ignoring it.
It's that I think it's not going to be a good suggestion or angle for most people. That's what I'm saying, which you are trying to treat with: "Oh, you don't get it? Just don't worry it's OK".
Anyway, it's just an opinion :)

Re: GA 13 - Rudolf Steiner's "Secret Science in Outline"

Posted: Tue Jul 16, 2024 10:53 pm
by AshvinP
Federica wrote: Tue Jul 16, 2024 10:09 pm
AshvinP wrote: Tue Jul 16, 2024 9:52 pm
Federica wrote: Tue Jul 16, 2024 9:26 pm I think what Kuhlewind calls improvisational thinking in meditation, in the quote, has nothing to do with the "socially interactive, playful ways" to improvise described in the Substack post. Yes it's fun and I don't have any problem with that play, but it's also the negation of disciplined spiritual work, and in this sense, not a very apppropriate idea for our times to put out there, as an alternative spiritual science. First because it will let all the subjective and very personal soul characteristics and weak points come to unscrutinized expression, rather than the suprawill Kuhlewind refers to, and second because it comforts people in thinking that having fun improvising is a proper spiritual path, a "method to inquire the now". Looks like the risk is similar to the one inherent in the psychedelic pictures: what would one do with the outcomes of improvisation to understand them, beyond convincing oneself that those are pearls of beauty and wisdom? So I still disagree it's a timely characterization of the necessary efforts of will required by the times.

PS. In the archive I prefer to search for improvis* so everything with that root pops up, including the occurrences of "improvised".

Ok, Federica, just ignore it then, these considerations are not for you.
It's not about me ignoring it or not ignoring it.
It's that I think it's not going to be a good suggestion or angle for most people. That's what I'm saying, which you are trying to treat with: "Oh, you don't get it? Just don't worry it's OK".
Anyway, it's just an opinion :)

Your first response was that you don't get it, not mine :) But you're right, I should at least add a couple of considerations here.

The capacity to improvise that we find in artistic or engineering pursuits (for ex. Apollo 13 when they had to use random materials to come up with a critical part of the module), and also in Steiner's lecturing which was itself an artform :) , is the very same capacity that we need to harness in higher development, except we purify the state of improvisation such that we reach its core essence and employ the capacity toward higher ideals. So this is not about people taking up improv classes to seek the Spirit - we can study all substances, events, and methods of the World to learn from them, to let them become our teachers, to extract their essence for our ideal pursuits, and leave aside the impurities that are unhelpful. That's why I mentioned the Vedanta retreat before - it is not at all something that should be followed for modern spiritual development, but we can still learn a lot from drawing on its essential spiritual core.

It's the very same capacity that you characterized as follows:

But when language continually lifts the verbal forms, they are ‘up for grabs’ for the ever emerging spiritual impulses to reincarnate in the reconfigured forms. Then language bridges the two worlds, spirit and matter.

This is what it truly means to improvise, without all the extraneous connotations drawn from Earthly life. You are often utilizing this improvisational capacity in your spiritual pursuits, except the inner experience isn't very clear yet. Eventually, you will awaken, like you did with the idea that analogies work in two directions, and say "Oh, so that's why Kuhlewind and Ashvin were comparing this activity to improvisation." Mark my words, it will happen :) So we don't need to debate it, or agree or disagree about it, or state our opinions about it, only clarify and orient to the underlying principle at work.