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Re: GA 13 - Rudolf Steiner's "Secret Science in Outline"

Posted: Fri Jun 21, 2024 8:43 pm
by Federica
AshvinP wrote: Thu Jun 20, 2024 1:07 pm
Federica wrote: Wed Jun 19, 2024 8:22 pm
AshvinP wrote: Sun Jun 16, 2024 12:27 pm


Yes, I realize the 'distortion', which is what I would simply call 'bad phrasing'. A better phrasing would have been, 'mentioning a principle and an opinion/aversion in the same sentence does not necessarily make the former a foundation for the latter'.

If we were to spend our time picking apart every way of phrasing underlying points with a microscope in this way, I would say this forum is chock-filled with "distortions". Such bad phrasings make me adjust my thoughts/feelings about paying more attention (a lot more attention around you :) ) to how I phrase my underlying points.

"The letter killeth but the spirit giveth life." What is the underlying spirit of what was being expressed?

On page 2 of this thread, you stated, "My understanding is, this is the deal of being incarnated on Earth [spiritual activity destroys the living body], no matter how elevated a stage one has attained."

Is it fair to say the argument above could be restated as, "this is the deal of modern initiation, the substances used for ancient initiations cannot possibly be helpful to engage in any way, no matter how elevated a stage one has attained"?


We disagree here. To use a principle as a principle - that is as a direction of understanding to be relied upon when approaching manifestations - and to make one's opinion into such orientating idea, are two far apart attitudes. It's not a microscope that you would need there, but more like a telescope.

Ashvin wrote:Such bad phrasings make me adjust my thoughts/feelings about paying more attention (a lot more attention around you :) ) to how I phrase my underlying points.
Aha? :)
Remember that the reason why I asked: "can you please say if realizing that you distorted my words, retroactively changes any thoughts/feelings in you?" is only that you had previously thrown in, as if it didn't happen to you too: "It's interesting how one simple fact later known can retroactively adjust many sentiments and judgments. Perhaps something to keep in mind for the future :) ". Since then we know it actually happens to you as well.

We have known that for a long time, Federica. As I often remark, I can only discern these inner patterns in the outer forms of the World because I have become intimate with and sensitive to their expression within myself. Perhaps this sounds like a trite cliche to you, something that is just said as an excuse for directing criticism toward others, but it's an intimate reality for me.
 
This is practically the entire path of spiritual evolution - it is why we can leverage the 'firm point' of observing our own spiritual activity to 'explain all other phenomena of the World'. We become more and more sensitive to how the World constrains and shapes our own soul-life. The first aspects of the World we grow more sensitive to are the mental and psychic habits of modern human culture that we are swimming in.
 
There are plenty of times when I begin forming firm opinions and conclusions about spiritual issues, or I perceive 'contradictions' in other peoples' writings, and things of that nature. There are many times when I notice questionable phraseology and have certainly latched onto those phrases in the past. At the same time, I try to consistently resist bringing these habits to outer expression, which is what develops our inner sensitivity to them, and to remain conscious of all of the ways in which I could be falling short in my understanding, being uncharitable, or simply following a path of unfruitful mental experience that won't enliven my spiritual activity.
 
For ex., when you wrote "as if it didn't happen to you", I could respond this is a "distortion", something projected into my comment, and so forth. This would lead us down a whole different path of forum experience. But I would resist that and rather try to understand the thinking-gestures that reach such a feeling, to empathize with it, and then simply let it go and try to hone in on the substantial issues for spiritual development. (I am only mentioning it now to illustrate the principle that I am discussing above). The forum gives us an exceptional place to practice these resistance efforts and take more conscious steering of our spiritual activity. Where else do we have the opportunities to move our intuitive activity through such spiritual topics with other people? We should take advantage of these opportunities.

Federica wrote:
Ashvin wrote:On page 2 of this thread, you stated, "My understanding is, this is the deal of being incarnated on Earth [spiritual activity destroys the living body], no matter how elevated a stage one has attained."

Is it fair to say the argument above could be restated as, "this is the deal of modern initiation, the substances used for ancient initiations cannot possibly be helpful to engage in any way, no matter how elevated a stage one has attained"?

No it wouldn't be fair, since Cleric said that cannabis was helpful for him to direct attention to spiritual matters. But, as Cleric said many times, it's at the beginning of one's path, when one needs to have one's attention attracted to spiritual reality, that psychoactive could possibly work, as they did for him. When it comes to the effects of using psychoactives to attempt to enhance spiritual transformation in general - granted that the experience and consequences may be very different for different people at different levels of spiritual development - my opinion has not fundamentally changed from the one I expressed long ago on the topic:
Federica wrote: Thu Sep 08, 2022 7:51 pm I perceive psychedelics as a profound violation of the integrity not only of the physical body, but of the ego.
And that's the spirit of what was being expressed.

Ok, but I am saying the very fact that we are expressing an unchanging "opinion" should start feeling a bit painful for us. It should start feeling like we are sitting on the couch eating potato chips, our arteries are clogging up, our muscles are beginning to atrophy, etc. Except it should feel like that for our spiritual activity.

I will point attention to Cleric's response to the comment you quoted:

I cannot tell with certainty but the antipathy will surely be transformed into understanding in the course of time... When cattle is shocked by the electric fence they will develop antipathy towards it and try to avoid it. A human being can develop understanding of electricity and instead of feeling antipathy, simply know its effects and avoid being shocked on purely reasoned grounds.

As usual, he has summed up in that simple comparison what I have been trying to communicate in many comments. We should feel a bit pained when our spiritual activity is led by firm opinions and antipathies and rather seek to penetrate the phenomena deeply with our thought-gestures and lucid understanding, even if through that whole process we end up arriving at something resembling our original opinion.


It doesn’t sound like a trite cliche, but it does sound like sermonizing (even the thought itself that I may be so blind to the microcosm of our human form, as to find such reference a trite cliche, sounds like more sermonizing). About a couple of posts above you wrote a detailed step-by-step guide explaining to me how you would go about thinking through Cleric’s posts, and now comes the booster.

You try to constantly resist expressing opinions about what others do (wrong). Yet, you have just suggested that I’ve created a whole argument for the purpose of attracting attention to myself, and you project into my comments that, just because my 2024 opinion on drug use is fundamentally similar to my 2022’s, it means there’s been no thinking in between. You even tell me how "we" should feel about it: "a bit pained".

As I read it, there’s a flavor of paradox hovering over here, which for you means that - I get it - there’s a little exercise opportunity, when you can retrace this thought and see how it connects to all the wrong things going on in humanity these days. From there, it’s about drawing the most inconclusive conclusions possible, and then trying to refrain from expressing them.

I am pained to say, Ashvin, our discussions seem to be evolving in a direction less and less conducive to positive effects. Maybe it’s because of your higher development increasing the gesture gap. However, there is a limit to how much sermonizing and patronizing I can manage.

Re: GA 13 - Rudolf Steiner's "Secret Science in Outline"

Posted: Fri Jun 21, 2024 11:05 pm
by AshvinP
Federica wrote: Fri Jun 21, 2024 8:43 pm It doesn’t sound like a trite cliche, but it does sound like sermonizing (even the thought itself that I may be so blind to the microcosm of our human form, as to find such reference a trite cliche, sounds like more sermonizing). About a couple of posts above you wrote a detailed step-by-step guide explaining to me how you would go about thinking through Cleric’s posts, and now comes the booster.

You try to constantly resist expressing opinions about what others do (wrong). Yet, you have just suggested that I’ve created a whole argument for the purpose of attracting attention to myself, and you project into my comments that, just because my 2024 opinion on drug use is fundamentally similar to my 2022’s, it means there’s been no thinking in between. You even tell me how "we" should feel about it: "a bit pained".

As I read it, there’s a flavor of paradox hovering over here, which for you means that - I get it - there’s a little exercise opportunity, when you can retrace this thought and see how it connects to all the wrong things going on in humanity these days. From there, it’s about drawing the most inconclusive conclusions possible, and then trying to refrain from expressing them.

Well, it seems my writing has become practically incoherent. I don't know how you reached the glowing parts stated above.

What should start to pain us is having a quick opinion about anything. If what is quoted below from Steiner feels like a sermon to you, like an insult, like I am saying "this never happens to me", or anything similar, then please recognize that is what you are projecting into it and not how I am intending it.

As Cleric stated before, "sweeping the ideal volume that we probe with thinking, feels a little different from sweeping the soul volume, which can still feel a little emotional. But in the end, it is all part of the same space of spiritual possibilities that we're gradually unveiling."

As time goes by, what Steiner says below will stop being about other people and will start being about us, in the most concrete way, and we will cherish that fact, we will savor the opportunity to sweep this space of spiritual possibilities that normal life gives us no chance to even notice.

How often do we find in our particular age that people, even quite young people, approach everything in the world upon which judgment can be passed, and think that when they have acquired a certain power of judgment they can pronounce opinion about everything in existence, and speculate on everything possible. In esoteric development the belief that one can speculate on all things is torn out of the soul by the roots; for we then notice that our opinions are capable of growth and, above all, that they need to mature.

The student learns to recognise that if he wishes to arrive at an opinion with which he is himself able to agree, he must live for some while with certain ideas which he has acquired, so that his own etheric body can come to an understanding with them. He learns that he must wait before he can arrive at a certain opinion. Only then does he realise the great significance of the words: ‘Let what is in the soul mature.’ He really becomes more and more modest...

Opinions, views must be battled for, must be won by effort—this the student recognises more and more. He acquires a profound, intense feeling of this, because he gains the inner feeling of time which is essentially connected with the development of the etheric body. Indeed, he gradually notices a certain opposition arise in his soul between the way he formerly judged and the way he now judges after having attained a certain maturity in this particular matter; and he notices that the opinion he formed in the past and the opinion he now holds confront each other like two powers, and he then notices in himself a certain inner mobility of the temporal within him; he notices that the earlier must be overcome by the later. This is the dawn in the consciousness of a certain feeling for time, which arises from the presence of inner conflicts, coming into existence through a certain opposition between the later and the earlier. It is absolutely necessary to acquire this inner feeling, this inner perception of time, for we must remember that we can only learn to experience the etheric when we acquire an inner idea of time.
I am pained to say, Ashvin, our discussions seem to be evolving in a direction less and less conducive to positive effects. Maybe it’s because of your higher development increasing the gesture gap. However, there is a limit to how much sermonizing and patronizing I can manage.

Maybe you're right about the bold part. I feel that I may be trying too forcefully to communicate a process of inner development that should simply be allowed to grow within the soul over time. And I think a part of me is still attracted to what I know is going to be a thorny discussion, when instead it is probably best not to even comment on the psychedelic issue, certainly not to respond when you are expressing "irritation" at something I wrote.

I will seriously try to resist responding the next time.

Re: GA 13 - Rudolf Steiner's "Secret Science in Outline"

Posted: Sat Jun 22, 2024 12:54 pm
by Federica
AshvinP wrote: Fri Jun 21, 2024 11:05 pm Well, it seems my writing has become practically incoherent. I don't know how you reached the glowing parts stated above.

What should start to pain us is having a quick opinion about anything. If what is quoted below from Steiner feels like a sermon to you, like an insult, like I am saying "this never happens to me", or anything similar, then please recognize that is what you are projecting into it and not how I am intending it.

As Cleric stated before, "sweeping the ideal volume that we probe with thinking, feels a little different from sweeping the soul volume, which can still feel a little emotional. But in the end, it is all part of the same space of spiritual possibilities that we're gradually unveiling."

As time goes by, what Steiner says below will stop being about other people and will start being about us, in the most concrete way, and we will cherish that fact, we will savor the opportunity to sweep this space of spiritual possibilities that normal life gives us no chance to even notice.

How often do we find in our particular age that people, even quite young people, approach everything in the world upon which judgment can be passed, and think that when they have acquired a certain power of judgment they can pronounce opinion about everything in existence, and speculate on everything possible. In esoteric development the belief that one can speculate on all things is torn out of the soul by the roots; for we then notice that our opinions are capable of growth and, above all, that they need to mature.

The student learns to recognise that if he wishes to arrive at an opinion with which he is himself able to agree, he must live for some while with certain ideas which he has acquired, so that his own etheric body can come to an understanding with them. He learns that he must wait before he can arrive at a certain opinion. Only then does he realise the great significance of the words: ‘Let what is in the soul mature.’ He really becomes more and more modest...

Opinions, views must be battled for, must be won by effort—this the student recognises more and more. He acquires a profound, intense feeling of this, because he gains the inner feeling of time which is essentially connected with the development of the etheric body. Indeed, he gradually notices a certain opposition arise in his soul between the way he formerly judged and the way he now judges after having attained a certain maturity in this particular matter; and he notices that the opinion he formed in the past and the opinion he now holds confront each other like two powers, and he then notices in himself a certain inner mobility of the temporal within him; he notices that the earlier must be overcome by the later. This is the dawn in the consciousness of a certain feeling for time, which arises from the presence of inner conflicts, coming into existence through a certain opposition between the later and the earlier. It is absolutely necessary to acquire this inner feeling, this inner perception of time, for we must remember that we can only learn to experience the etheric when we acquire an inner idea of time.
I am pained to say, Ashvin, our discussions seem to be evolving in a direction less and less conducive to positive effects. Maybe it’s because of your higher development increasing the gesture gap. However, there is a limit to how much sermonizing and patronizing I can manage.

Maybe you're right about the bold part. I feel that I may be trying too forcefully to communicate a process of inner development that should simply be allowed to grow within the soul over time. And I think a part of me is still attracted to what I know is going to be a thorny discussion, when instead it is probably best not to even comment on the psychedelic issue, certainly not to respond when you are expressing "irritation" at something I wrote.

I will seriously try to resist responding the next time.
Thanks for this inspiring quote, Ashvin!

Re: GA 13 - Rudolf Steiner's "Secret Science in Outline"

Posted: Sun Jun 30, 2024 6:39 pm
by Federica
AshvinP wrote: Sun Jun 16, 2024 8:04 pm
Federica wrote: Sun Jun 16, 2024 6:38 am To repeat - the principle I appealed to - clearly and repeatedly - is the one Steiner expressed hundred times: that in our times the initiation path must be trodden in full consciousness, waking consciousness, as opposed to the Mysteries of antiquity, when the student had to enter death-like, or dreamless sleep-like, states of consciousness, below waking state, through the use of substances. My opinion, as I already stated, is that I can rely on this principle to found my aversion to psychedelics as adjuvants on the spiritual path.

I want to add something related to the above. We should keep in mind that ancient initiation isn't fundamentally different from modern initiation. Certainly, the method is different since it has become universalized through the conceptual thinking faculty where the Spirit has incarnated. We could say the sphere of karmic disposition for entering the spiritual world has grown much larger and is much less concerned with blood relations or other group characteristics. This universalization should only increase in the coming years. And it is true that the ancient practices become hindering when they are unquestionably imported into current evolutionary circumstances.

Nevertheless, there is still a concrete process of death and resurrection underlying modern initiation into higher states of consciousness (that we normally experience as dreaming and dreamless sleep), although the stages of this process are now more particularized to individual circumstances and distributed across time. Not everything needs to happen in the 3 nights of temple sleep, but it does need to happen all the same. The etheric needs to be loosened from the physical so that it can receive the imprints of the ego-astral experiences in the higher spaces of potential. 

This is related to Cleric's comment about the inner experience from psychedelics that can lead to awakening - it is intimately related to experiencing ourselves 'drawing outside the lines' of our normal personality and its various instinctively etched channels of activity, or at least intimating the possibility to draw outside those lines and become inspired to work at it. That is how the spirit begins to remember its more holistic stages of existence before/after incarnation. It has to die to the qualities and habits of those etched layers so it can be reborn in the higher spaces, which is a whole gradient of gradual development. 

I was underestimating that part of the picture as well, and perhaps I am overestimating the possibilities of microdosing or otherwise engaging with psychedelics at higher stages of development for spiritual research. I think it's clear from my comments that I am not very confident about those possibilities and I am in no position to hold any firm conclusions about them. I try to remain open to new facts and research and I try to remember how little I know in this domain apart from the most general outlines. Overall, it's safe to say that psychedelics are not going to be very useful for entering the spiritual world and attaining holistic insights, and there are much more effective ways of awakening to the immortal soul with fewer risks. Even MS seems to agree with that. 

I will add my comments from YT here as well for anyone following:

It's important to note that psychedelics do not lead to body-free or sense-free spiritual experiences. That is evident from the fact that, if all the substance were to be pumped out of our blood, we would immediately collapse back into normal conscious experience. In that sense, psychedelics (like all physical substances) condition our "I" to become reliant on bodily processes for altered states. They loosen the astral-etheric from the physical and pump images into our consciousness, but these images are confronted *with the normal intellect*, just like sensory impressions. The intellect is adapted to interpreting sensory impressions but not to engaging with holistic etheric images, which are fundamentally of thought-nature. That means we could easily form faulty conclusions from these imagistic experiences, interpreted piecemeal by the intellect, and fail to trace them back to higher-order spiritual activity that transcends all sensory-like manifestations. I think that may have also been what Anna was drawing attention to at the end.

...(response to MS) That makes sense. The issue is that, without the prior spiritual training, the psychedelic experience is felt as so profound and insightful compared to normal consciousness that it just doesn't "make sense" to then renounce the psychedelics for patient, disciplined, and sacrificial inner work, i.e. imaginative concentration and soul purification exercises. I think the situation is much better when a person begins with anthroposophical spiritual training and then decides to approach minimal and responsible usage of psychedelics for educational and redemptive purposes.

In my experience, once young people set out on the path of psychedelic spirituality, it becomes nearly impossible to tell them it may be better to renounce it for a while and seek deeper spiritual understanding through the methodical enlivening of cognition and strengthening of willpower. It is not much unlike what happens with those who pursue a modern mystical path and feel united with the absolute ground of reality. Once that happens, logical reasoning through spiritual experience becomes almost laughable.

That said, I think there are probably important distinctions to be made between psychedelics, such as DMT, and responsible spiritual investigators should continue tracing their influences to get a more refined sense of what beings they put us into contact with and exactly how they can promote or hinder spiritual development.

I also hope it's clear that the primary value here is from continually exercising our intuitive and imaginative faculties, not from reaching specific conclusions or figuring out the 'right' or 'wrong' answers. It is from making our conceptual activity concentric with the higher spaces of potential through many iterations, approaching the intuitions from many diverse angles and gradually probing their inner geometry. We should start to feel the infinite value for our inner life, and the inner life of humanity as a whole, that comes from exploring new and unfamiliar mental pathways of experience, dying to old limiting habits that bind the spirit in a straitjacket. We may experience very few clear-cut concepts when doing such explorations at first, we may not reach any firm conclusions for a long time, but the value is in the journey itself. Through that journey, we may eventually reach intuitive conclusions of an entirely different order, not necessarily about what substances and practices are 'right' or 'wrong', 'allowed' or 'disallowed' in any generalized way, but about how they fit into the holistic tapestry of spiritual evolution and into the tapestry of our own intimate streams of destiny. 


I'm sure I'm not surprising anyone by saying that I've kept thinking about this issue. I have tried to unlisten to my antipathy and focus on what is the deep meaning of drug use for exclusively spiritual purposes - what it entails to seek a transformation of the physical cognitive response through targeted interventions on the physical reflective organs of cognition, from the perspective of a human being looking up towards the Good, inspired by the Hierarchies to take on the responsibilities we are called to accept in this phase of human evolution.

When we look at the path ahead from within the large context of our eon-long evolving mission and responsibility, we progressively realize that what we need to work on, at the current level of development of our Being, is the human "I", the Will, so that we can orient it in freedom towards the Good. In this epoch, the "I" is our most imperfect sheath, whose blossoming, or lack thereof, will make or break our meaning as humanity.

As Max Leyf recently described, speaking of "the conversion of desire and the magnum opus":


Experientially, our existential “center of gravity” progressively shifts, as a result of the conversion here described, from an identification with the first-order desires to an identification with the agency to transform them over time. When we say “I,” we no longer refer to the more or less arbitrary heap of appetites and complexes and neuroses that we ordinarily identify with and instead begin to refer to the one who is responsible to reform them. In the first instance, we have identified with what we want and perceive everything that prevents us from achieving it as an affront to us. In the second instance, we have identified with the power to want what to want and perceive our earlier wants as obstacles and stumbling-blocks on the path to whom we wish to become.6 The ideal that we seek to embody is not arbitrary, but is rather conceived in light of the Image and Idea of (the) Go(o)d.

This conversion, from the primacy of the instincts to the primacy of the idea of the Good, is the epochal task man is called to effect in our times, through leveraging the potential of the "I". Conversely, the physical body that we have the chance to experience in the present times is the most perfectly developed of our four bodies, since it’s been refined, and further and further refined, by the Hierarchies over the round of all four convolutions, starting from the Saturn eon, when everything else of our present constitution was yet to be conceived. Whenever our physical body works imperfectly and dysfunctionally (beyond karmic constraints) it’s because we have altered its ideally perfect workings through less-than-harmonious soul-etheric activity that dephases the admirable interconnections of rhythms of our natural constitution.

In future eons, man will reach a point in development where we’ll be able to creatively intervene on the templates of physicality, but for now, on Earth, we don’t even master the simplest life form, and our clear and lawful impulse inspired by the Logos is to dedicate our best efforts to awakening to our true self, working on the one space we have the potential to control entirely within us - the thinking space.

The way I see it, from this perspective, the attempt to complement spiritual development through the force of thinking with purposeful interventions aimed at changing the functions and rhythms of the physical brain and reflective cognition appears as not only a scorn to our own "I" - in the sense previously conveyed by the words: “The "I" is innerly divided that there's something which it is incapable to achieve through its own forces. Basically on the deepest level this amounts to the "I" doubting its own divinity” - but also an act of defiance against the wisdom that’s been infused, since the Saturnian beginning of our cosmic evolution, in our most ancient and perfect sheath.

I was wondering, Ashvin, apart from the fact that you don't think it's appropriate to stick to clear-cut rules when it comes to psychedelic use, what would be your reply to such a critique?

Re: GA 13 - Rudolf Steiner's "Secret Science in Outline"

Posted: Sun Jun 30, 2024 11:08 pm
by AshvinP
Federica wrote: Sun Jun 30, 2024 6:39 pm I'm sure I'm not surprising anyone by saying that I've kept thinking about this issue. I have tried to unlisten to my antipathy and focus on what is the deep meaning of drug use for exclusively spiritual purposes - what it entails to seek a transformation of the physical cognitive response through targeted interventions on the physical reflective organs of cognition, from the perspective of a human being looking up towards the Good, inspired by the Hierarchies to take on the responsibilities we are called to accept in this phase of human evolution.

When we look at the path ahead from within the large context of our eon-long evolving mission and responsibility, we progressively realize that what we need to work on, at the current level of development of our Being, is the human "I", the Will, so that we can orient it in freedom towards the Good. In this epoch, the "I" is our most imperfect sheath, whose blossoming, or lack thereof, will make or break our meaning as humanity.

As Max Leyf recently described, speaking of "the conversion of desire and the magnum opus":


Experientially, our existential “center of gravity” progressively shifts, as a result of the conversion here described, from an identification with the first-order desires to an identification with the agency to transform them over time. When we say “I,” we no longer refer to the more or less arbitrary heap of appetites and complexes and neuroses that we ordinarily identify with and instead begin to refer to the one who is responsible to reform them. In the first instance, we have identified with what we want and perceive everything that prevents us from achieving it as an affront to us. In the second instance, we have identified with the power to want what to want and perceive our earlier wants as obstacles and stumbling-blocks on the path to whom we wish to become.6 The ideal that we seek to embody is not arbitrary, but is rather conceived in light of the Image and Idea of (the) Go(o)d.

This conversion, from the primacy of the instincts to the primacy of the idea of the Good, is the epochal task man is called to effect in our times, through leveraging the potential of the "I". Conversely, the physical body that we have the chance to experience in the present times is the most perfectly developed of our four bodies, since it’s been refined, and further and further refined, by the Hierarchies over the round of all four convolutions, starting from the Saturn eon, when everything else of our present constitution was yet to be conceived. Whenever our physical body works imperfectly and dysfunctionally (beyond karmic constraints) it’s because we have altered its ideally perfect workings through less-than-harmonious soul-etheric activity that dephases the admirable interconnections of rhythms of our natural constitution.

In future eons, man will reach a point in development where we’ll be able to creatively intervene on the templates of physicality, but for now, on Earth, we don’t even master the simplest life form, and our clear and lawful impulse inspired by the Logos is to dedicate our best efforts to awakening to our true self, working on the one space we have the potential to control entirely within us - the thinking space.

The way I see it, from this perspective, the attempt to complement spiritual development through the force of thinking with purposeful interventions aimed at changing the functions and rhythms of the physical brain and reflective cognition appears as not only a scorn to our own "I" - in the sense previously conveyed by the words: “The "I" is innerly divided that there's something which it is incapable to achieve through its own forces. Basically on the deepest level this amounts to the "I" doubting its own divinity” - but also an act of defiance against the wisdom that’s been infused, since the Saturnian beginning of our cosmic evolution, in our most ancient and perfect sheath.

I was wondering, Ashvin, apart from the fact that you don't think it's appropriate to stick to clear-cut rules when it comes to psychedelic use, what would be your reply to such a critique?

Federica,

My reply, of course, wouldn't be to challenge the broad principle you are laying out above. It is very well outlined and stated. I think it's clear that it is the core principle - the "I" needs to draw on the idea of the Good to spiritualize its soul constitution, first and foremost. It can't forcibly or quickly spiritualize the etheric and physical sheaths through any sort of external intervention that works around its cognitive and moral development. Such interventions not coupled with inner wisdom and loving intentions (these two should not operate separately) are guaranteed to do more harm than good for us and society as a whole.

The principles, though, also need to be fleshed out through nuanced considerations of the most varied facts from the most varied angles. Here are a few observations that come to mind in contemplating your post above, in no particular order. They should at least help us view the issue from various perspectives. If there is one thing we can be sure about, it is that our perspective on any given topic should always be evolving and gaining refined texture even if that perspective is generally tending in the direction of established spiritual principles, which it should be. After contemplating these points, perhaps you can share if/how they inform your perspective on the issue.

- We are always intervening in the physical organism and the reflective organs of cognition. This is part of what it means to have the incarnate "I" principle. Even when we sit still and think, we are taking hold of the neurosensory system. Whenever we consume substances from the outer world, we are modulating the physical organism in some way. It is true that our ego-consciousness should not try to meddle too much in the deeper rhythmic and metabolic systems, but a part of purifying the soul life is also torquing the neurosensory system and even aspects of the rhythmic system (like breathing). We have instilled many disorderly tendencies into our physiology through childhood, adolescence, and adulthood, and drawing on the idea of the Good should help us instill more harmonious currents to gradually heal them.

- Related to that, we have to consider that the critique above applies equally well to anything we consume or interface with through our physical organism, including our computer technology. That is, when it is left at such a broad level of resolution. So we need to move our thinking around a bit and probe exactly what differentiates the "I" choosing to modulate its cognitive life via psychedelics, for ex., from modulating it via computer technology, coffee, or other substances. I would add this shouldn't be based on personal experiences or feelings alone - there are many relevant factors aliased from our personal experience.

- Where do we draw the line between the "I" simply making use of the tools around it to leverage its cognitive-perceptual capacity toward the Good, tools also placed in our physical context by the Divine, and the "I" acting defiantly and doubting its own divinity?


As always, the purpose of making these points is not to land on some 'right' answer, to argue yay or nay against psychedelic use for spiritual development. In fact, at this time, I think we have already decided that it is unlikely anyone on this forum will attain benefits from such use that they cannot attain more safely and effectively through imaginative and intuitive development. But the primary purpose of thinking through such issues from varied angles should be precisely to exercise and stimulate the latter. I am reminded of Tomberg's meditation on The Hermit.

The Arcana of the Tarot, I must stress, are spiritual exercises. And the ninth Arcanum, the Hermit is one of them.

For this reason the preceding meditations on the three antinomies aim not so much at a solution of the antinomies that will please everyone, but more to encourage spiritual endeavour orientated towards the solution of these antinomies.

You can certainly resolve them in a more profound and satisfying way. It is a matter, in the case of the solutions that I have proposed above, above all of a concrete illustration (which is, I know, far from being the best) of an individual endeavour by way of a special spiritual exercise. This consists in setting before you a thesis and an antithesis, both as clearly as possible — I should say: as crystallised light—in such a way that all intellectual light which is at your disposal may then be consumed by these two opposing theses. You will then arrive at a state of mind in which all that you know and clearly perceive is put into the thesis and its antithesis, so that they may be like two rays of light, whilst your mind itself is plunged into darkness. You know and see nothing more than the light of these two contrary theses; beyond them there remains only darkness.

And it is then that one undertakes the essential thing about this exercise, namely the endeavour to draw light from darkness, i.e. an effort aiming at knowledge which appears to you to be not only unknown but also unknowable.

In fact, every serious antinomy signifies psychologically: "the light that I possess is polarised at two poles; between these two luminous poles there is only darkness". Now. it is from this darkness that the solution to the antinomy, the synthesis, must be drawn. It is necessary to create light from darkness. One could say that it is a matter of an act analogous to the Fiat lux ("Let there be light", Genesis i, 3) of the first day of creation.
Experience teaches us that there are two kinds of darkness in the domain of consciousness. One is that of ignorance, passivity and laziness, which is "infralight" darkness. The other, in contrast, is the darkness of higher knowledge, intense activity and endeavour still to be made —this is "ultra-light". It is a question of this latter "darkness" in instances where it is a matter of resolving an antinomy or finding a synthesis.

Re: GA 13 - Rudolf Steiner's "Secret Science in Outline"

Posted: Tue Jul 02, 2024 2:46 pm
by Federica
AshvinP wrote: Sun Jun 30, 2024 11:08 pm
Federica wrote: Sun Jun 30, 2024 6:39 pm I'm sure I'm not surprising anyone by saying that I've kept thinking about this issue. I have tried to unlisten to my antipathy and focus on what is the deep meaning of drug use for exclusively spiritual purposes - what it entails to seek a transformation of the physical cognitive response through targeted interventions on the physical reflective organs of cognition, from the perspective of a human being looking up towards the Good, inspired by the Hierarchies to take on the responsibilities we are called to accept in this phase of human evolution.

When we look at the path ahead from within the large context of our eon-long evolving mission and responsibility, we progressively realize that what we need to work on, at the current level of development of our Being, is the human "I", the Will, so that we can orient it in freedom towards the Good. In this epoch, the "I" is our most imperfect sheath, whose blossoming, or lack thereof, will make or break our meaning as humanity.

As Max Leyf recently described, speaking of "the conversion of desire and the magnum opus":


Experientially, our existential “center of gravity” progressively shifts, as a result of the conversion here described, from an identification with the first-order desires to an identification with the agency to transform them over time. When we say “I,” we no longer refer to the more or less arbitrary heap of appetites and complexes and neuroses that we ordinarily identify with and instead begin to refer to the one who is responsible to reform them. In the first instance, we have identified with what we want and perceive everything that prevents us from achieving it as an affront to us. In the second instance, we have identified with the power to want what to want and perceive our earlier wants as obstacles and stumbling-blocks on the path to whom we wish to become.6 The ideal that we seek to embody is not arbitrary, but is rather conceived in light of the Image and Idea of (the) Go(o)d.

This conversion, from the primacy of the instincts to the primacy of the idea of the Good, is the epochal task man is called to effect in our times, through leveraging the potential of the "I". Conversely, the physical body that we have the chance to experience in the present times is the most perfectly developed of our four bodies, since it’s been refined, and further and further refined, by the Hierarchies over the round of all four convolutions, starting from the Saturn eon, when everything else of our present constitution was yet to be conceived. Whenever our physical body works imperfectly and dysfunctionally (beyond karmic constraints) it’s because we have altered its ideally perfect workings through less-than-harmonious soul-etheric activity that dephases the admirable interconnections of rhythms of our natural constitution.

In future eons, man will reach a point in development where we’ll be able to creatively intervene on the templates of physicality, but for now, on Earth, we don’t even master the simplest life form, and our clear and lawful impulse inspired by the Logos is to dedicate our best efforts to awakening to our true self, working on the one space we have the potential to control entirely within us - the thinking space.

The way I see it, from this perspective, the attempt to complement spiritual development through the force of thinking with purposeful interventions aimed at changing the functions and rhythms of the physical brain and reflective cognition appears as not only a scorn to our own "I" - in the sense previously conveyed by the words: “The "I" is innerly divided that there's something which it is incapable to achieve through its own forces. Basically on the deepest level this amounts to the "I" doubting its own divinity” - but also an act of defiance against the wisdom that’s been infused, since the Saturnian beginning of our cosmic evolution, in our most ancient and perfect sheath.

I was wondering, Ashvin, apart from the fact that you don't think it's appropriate to stick to clear-cut rules when it comes to psychedelic use, what would be your reply to such a critique?

Federica,

My reply, of course, wouldn't be to challenge the broad principle you are laying out above. It is very well outlined and stated. I think it's clear that it is the core principle - the "I" needs to draw on the idea of the Good to spiritualize its soul constitution, first and foremost. It can't forcibly or quickly spiritualize the etheric and physical sheaths through any sort of external intervention that works around its cognitive and moral development. Such interventions not coupled with inner wisdom and loving intentions (these two should not operate separately) are guaranteed to do more harm than good for us and society as a whole.

The principles, though, also need to be fleshed out through nuanced considerations of the most varied facts from the most varied angles. Here are a few observations that come to mind in contemplating your post above, in no particular order. They should at least help us view the issue from various perspectives. If there is one thing we can be sure about, it is that our perspective on any given topic should always be evolving and gaining refined texture even if that perspective is generally tending in the direction of established spiritual principles, which it should be. After contemplating these points, perhaps you can share if/how they inform your perspective on the issue.

- We are always intervening in the physical organism and the reflective organs of cognition. This is part of what it means to have the incarnate "I" principle. Even when we sit still and think, we are taking hold of the neurosensory system. Whenever we consume substances from the outer world, we are modulating the physical organism in some way. It is true that our ego-consciousness should not try to meddle too much in the deeper rhythmic and metabolic systems, but a part of purifying the soul life is also torquing the neurosensory system and even aspects of the rhythmic system (like breathing). We have instilled many disorderly tendencies into our physiology through childhood, adolescence, and adulthood, and drawing on the idea of the Good should help us instill more harmonious currents to gradually heal them.

- Related to that, we have to consider that the critique above applies equally well to anything we consume or interface with through our physical organism, including our computer technology. That is, when it is left at such a broad level of resolution. So we need to move our thinking around a bit and probe exactly what differentiates the "I" choosing to modulate its cognitive life via psychedelics, for ex., from modulating it via computer technology, coffee, or other substances. I would add this shouldn't be based on personal experiences or feelings alone - there are many relevant factors aliased from our personal experience.

- Where do we draw the line between the "I" simply making use of the tools around it to leverage its cognitive-perceptual capacity toward the Good, tools also placed in our physical context by the Divine, and the "I" acting defiantly and doubting its own divinity?


As always, the purpose of making these points is not to land on some 'right' answer, to argue yay or nay against psychedelic use for spiritual development. In fact, at this time, I think we have already decided that it is unlikely anyone on this forum will attain benefits from such use that they cannot attain more safely and effectively through imaginative and intuitive development. But the primary purpose of thinking through such issues from varied angles should be precisely to exercise and stimulate the latter. I am reminded of Tomberg's meditation on The Hermit.

The Arcana of the Tarot, I must stress, are spiritual exercises. And the ninth Arcanum, the Hermit is one of them.

For this reason the preceding meditations on the three antinomies aim not so much at a solution of the antinomies that will please everyone, but more to encourage spiritual endeavour orientated towards the solution of these antinomies.

You can certainly resolve them in a more profound and satisfying way. It is a matter, in the case of the solutions that I have proposed above, above all of a concrete illustration (which is, I know, far from being the best) of an individual endeavour by way of a special spiritual exercise. This consists in setting before you a thesis and an antithesis, both as clearly as possible — I should say: as crystallised light—in such a way that all intellectual light which is at your disposal may then be consumed by these two opposing theses. You will then arrive at a state of mind in which all that you know and clearly perceive is put into the thesis and its antithesis, so that they may be like two rays of light, whilst your mind itself is plunged into darkness. You know and see nothing more than the light of these two contrary theses; beyond them there remains only darkness.

And it is then that one undertakes the essential thing about this exercise, namely the endeavour to draw light from darkness, i.e. an effort aiming at knowledge which appears to you to be not only unknown but also unknowable.

In fact, every serious antinomy signifies psychologically: "the light that I possess is polarised at two poles; between these two luminous poles there is only darkness". Now. it is from this darkness that the solution to the antinomy, the synthesis, must be drawn. It is necessary to create light from darkness. One could say that it is a matter of an act analogous to the Fiat lux ("Let there be light", Genesis i, 3) of the first day of creation.
Experience teaches us that there are two kinds of darkness in the domain of consciousness. One is that of ignorance, passivity and laziness, which is "infralight" darkness. The other, in contrast, is the darkness of higher knowledge, intense activity and endeavour still to be made —this is "ultra-light". It is a question of this latter "darkness" in instances where it is a matter of resolving an antinomy or finding a synthesis.


Thanks for this response and invitation, Ashvin.

I believe we discussed the points you raise before. For sure, our physical separateness is an illusion, just as much as our spiritual bubble-ness is. I did have that in mind, when writing the critique. We continually interact with our environment - physical, emotional, mental - within a concentric context, where no aspect can be torn apart. In the physical sphere, we mainly do it somewhat passively through perception. Still, concentric around our passive perception, there's the feeling we clothe it in, and the intention we set as the inner driver of the perceptual flow.

In this sense, I understand what you point out - that the simple fact of being incarnated in a body of matter constantly and inevitably prompts us to generate a flow of bodily experience. This flow is very diverse, both in its physical character and in the quality of its concentricity within the cone: “sensations-feeling-thinking-intents”. So, as you say, it’s necessary to differentiate the many ways in which our physical body may find itself engaged in activity, to evaluate what spectrum of activity is more likely to be entirely lawful and aligned with the Good - aligned with the range of activity designated by our evolutionary standpoint - versus what spectrum is most likely defiant, far-fetched and risky, due to our present great limitations in the realm of physicality, in which we are bound to heavily constrained activity, regulated within boundaries so tight that we can call them natural laws, and rest confidently in our clearly traced paths inside them.

So I will attempt this differentiation. First we can notice that, when we operate our body according to the templates of nature, the ones a plant and/or an animal lives by with unconscious wisdom - breathing, moving, consuming elements of the environment - we are satisfying our survival instincts. We are preserving our life. I would deem that the whole perceptual spectrum can be considered from this angle: in a strong sense, we perceive to preserve our Earthly existence. Yes, when we say perception we inevitably involve thinking, but we are attempting a differentiation here, so I guess we can provisionally refer to the rather passive perceptual sphere in its life preserving quality, to start with.

As human beings, our goal in this area of physical activity is primarily one of moderation. We are called to willingly replicate the infused wisdom that regulates those maintaining activities in the animal, plant, and maybe even mineral realms, so that the activities don't override this function of preservation. Clearly, we have to be vigilant that the soul doesn’t take over those activities as instruments for the satisfaction of arbitrary desires. However, my present understanding in this area is that there is no point in intentionally mortifying natural desires with the exclusive intention of desensitizing the body to pleasure. Maybe that was appropriate in past millennia, I am not sure, but today, when we are supposed to willingly develop the capacity to regulate those desires, such mortification reads to me as defiance towards the hierarchies and scorn to the true self, just in the same way as psychedelics do. It would be like saying: "I don’t trust I can regulate the desires myself, so I try to amputate them, erase them, by overriding them with physical pain; and I don’t trust the body to be the appropriate support for incarnated spiritual development as it is in its rhythms, shaped by the hierarchies." So I try to bend it, in its rhythms. For example I deprive it of sleep, as a principle, and wake up at 04:00 every morning, I deprive it of sexuality as a principle, I make it rest on bare wood, I sit cross-legged until my joints hurt, I only eat stale bread, etcetera.

Maybe I am digressing, but I wanted to mean that defiance, and the impulse to override the ideal bodily rhythms, can be implemented from quite different points of departure - one is more tech-friendly, matter-friendly (psychoactives) the other is more mystical (hairshirts). Coming back to what type of 'physical engagement' - let’s call it so - has chances to be self-diminishing and defiant and what hasn't, I would say it’s all a matter of intention. Because, as you say, as long as we are incarnated we can’t sever the will from thinking, from feeling, from sensing. Hence the only way to responsibly differentiate is to sit in our ‘control tower’ of will-thinking and coordinate our bodily activity in a way that both honors its divine, ideal perfection, and also regulates its vulnerability to the potential tyranny of the soul. There's a middle ground to be found.

In this sense, I think that our line of action should work primarily downward: with our willed thoughts we educate our soul, which in turn will regulate bodily activity in moderation, under the guidance of the I. So for example when it comes to coffee consumption, I would say that, if one experiences addiction - like the guy in the interview Cleric shared, who felt that coffee is like psychedelics! - then it should be regulated. The tumorous loop of arbitrary desire should be bursted. In my direct experience, though coffee is (moderately) pleasant, coffee doesn’t do that at all. It’s not difficult for me to abstain from it, so I am not sure there would be value in eliminating it, unless I wanted to mortify the body, which as I said, I don’t aim to. However, I could consider eliminating it, if my present understanding turned out to be incorrect. If you will, coffee for me is pleasurable in the same way that taking a shower at the preferred water temperature is. Sure, I could take it 3 degrees colder or warmer, and it could be a good experiment for some specific reason. But just for the sake of adding some discomfort to everyday life, I don’t believe it makes sense.

For the other example you mention, screen exposure/computer use, it’s similar. I believe it entirely depends on how our willed thoughts direct that type of bodily engagement. Do we do it with the aim of disrupting our bodily rhythms - either purposefully, or because we succumb to arbitrary desires? Or do we put effort in abdicating the least possible amount of agency in every aspect of the experience, while still engaging with it, aware of what we would miss if we were to completely abstain from it?

Now coming to psychedelics, it should stand to reason to proceed similarly. Our ego should consider such form of bodily engagement, and see whether it honors and facilitates the ideal bodily rhythms as structured by the hierarchies (like moderated satisfaction of bodily desires does) and/or, as a technology, whether its use can facilitate spiritual development, under condition of maintaining control, like it is for computer use, where, if we are able to maintain perceptual and ideal control, we are rewarded with otherwise inaccessible content and interactions. But do psychedelics even offer similar possibilities? Is there any immense value we miss by staying away from psychedelics, as we would miss, should we decide to stay away from the wealth of content and interaction accessible through the web? And is it possible to remain in control of one’s own agency, when the lawfulness of perception is shut down in a forceful way?

What would be the spiritually acceptable reason to try and induce imagination exogenously, from the bottom-up, once one is able to willingly enter the imaginative state through concentration? How would that not equal the introduction of a contender to the soul forces? Why is there a need to pump up the imaginative muscles, not only with spiritual exercise, but also with spiritual steroids? And here, of course, the connection becomes evident with the other principle I previously mentioned, that you for some reason entirely rejected, calling it an opinion, when applied to psychoactive: that in the times of the consciousness soul, we are called to develop our I consciously. 'Consciously' not only means with full engagement of active thinking. It also means with the least possible disruptions to the ideal rhythms of the physical body, that we don’t master. Those rhythms are mastered for us, just like individuation was mastered for ancient man, by the hierarchies. Now we've got individuation. How is it not defiant against the hierarchies, instead of quietly developing individuation into its own garden, within the limits of its proper context - that is, through thinking work - to attempt taking over the rhythms of physicality, or even only playing around with them, jumping across multiple borders of lawfulness?


Cleric has recently referred to future technological devices as amplifiers of inner intents:
Cleric K wrote: Thu May 23, 2024 1:53 pm The devices of the future won't be something that utilize our better understanding of the laws of the physical-world-in-itself, but instead will be something like amplifiers of our inner intents. Our L-movements would cascade through the stages of the device and manifest on a larger scale. Here, however, even deeper moral coordination will be needed. Even if we could get our hands on one such future device today, it would simply not work. No one would be able to set it in motion. This is simply due to the fact that the devices don't utilize some hardcoded laws of Nature that are immutable and independent of everything else

I think that using psychedelics as boosters, or amplifiers, of spiritual development, runs great risk of being a well fitting example of the error described in the quote. Present-day technology such as psychoactives, inscribed as they are in the hardcoded laws of chemistry, can’t be hijacked in that way. This is because we don’t master those laws today, other than externally. We don’t master them from the inside out. The Hierarchies do.

So this is how I would start moving our thinking around a bit. In any case, I see that one could argue that change happens in streams, and not as a unitary front, therefore innovation in this field is OK; one could also argue that waking state is maintained because of micro-dosing; one could argue that rhythms are not disrupted, but simply explored; and there's certainly a whole list of other possible arguments. In this sense, I realize that what I'm expressing, at the end of the day, is still an opinion. To conclude on a lighter note, let’s say that when it comes to the administration of the physical body in our times, I am perhaps more on the conservative side, rather than on the liberal one. :)

Re: GA 13 - Rudolf Steiner's "Secret Science in Outline"

Posted: Thu Jul 04, 2024 3:31 pm
by AshvinP
Federica wrote: Tue Jul 02, 2024 2:46 pm Thanks for this response and invitation, Ashvin.

I believe we discussed the points you raise before. For sure, our physical separateness is an illusion, just as much as our spiritual bubble-ness is. I did have that in mind, when writing the critique. We continually interact with our environment - physical, emotional, mental - within a concentric context, where no aspect can be torn apart. In the physical sphere, we mainly do it somewhat passively through perception. Still, concentric around our passive perception, there's the feeling we clothe it in, and the intention we set as the inner driver of the perceptual flow.

In this sense, I understand what you point out - that the simple fact of being incarnated in a body of matter constantly and inevitably prompts us to generate a flow of bodily experience. This flow is very diverse, both in its physical character and in the quality of its concentricity within the cone: “sensations-feeling-thinking-intents”. So, as you say, it’s necessary to differentiate the many ways in which our physical body may find itself engaged in activity, to evaluate what spectrum of activity is more likely to be entirely lawful and aligned with the Good - aligned with the range of activity designated by our evolutionary standpoint - versus what spectrum is most likely defiant, far-fetched and risky, due to our present great limitations in the realm of physicality, in which we are bound to heavily constrained activity, regulated within boundaries so tight that we can call them natural laws, and rest confidently in our clearly traced paths inside them.

So I will attempt this differentiation. First we can notice that, when we operate our body according to the templates of nature, the ones a plant and/or an animal lives by with unconscious wisdom - breathing, moving, consuming elements of the environment - we are satisfying our survival instincts. We are preserving our life. I would deem that the whole perceptual spectrum can be considered from this angle: in a strong sense, we perceive to preserve our Earthly existence. Yes, when we say perception we inevitably involve thinking, but we are attempting a differentiation here, so I guess we can provisionally refer to the rather passive perceptual sphere in its life preserving quality, to start with.

As human beings, our goal in this area of physical activity is primarily one of moderation. We are called to willingly replicate the infused wisdom that regulates those maintaining activities in the animal, plant, and maybe even mineral realms, so that the activities don't override this function of preservation. Clearly, we have to be vigilant that the soul doesn’t take over those activities as instruments for the satisfaction of arbitrary desires. However, my present understanding in this area is that there is no point in intentionally mortifying natural desires with the exclusive intention of desensitizing the body to pleasure. Maybe that was appropriate in past millennia, I am not sure, but today, when we are supposed to willingly develop the capacity to regulate those desires, such mortification reads to me as defiance towards the hierarchies and scorn to the true self, just in the same way as psychedelics do. It would be like saying: "I don’t trust I can regulate the desires myself, so I try to amputate them, erase them, by overriding them with physical pain; and I don’t trust the body to be the appropriate support for incarnated spiritual development as it is in its rhythms, shaped by the hierarchies." So I try to bend it, in its rhythms. For example I deprive it of sleep, as a principle, and wake up at 04:00 every morning, I deprive it of sexuality as a principle, I make it rest on bare wood, I sit cross-legged until my joints hurt, I only eat stale bread, etcetera.

Maybe I am digressing, but I wanted to mean that defiance, and the impulse to override the ideal bodily rhythms, can be implemented from quite different points of departure - one is more tech-friendly, matter-friendly (psychoactives) the other is more mystical (hairshirts). Coming back to what type of 'physical engagement' - let’s call it so - has chances to be self-diminishing and defiant and what hasn't, I would say it’s all a matter of intention. Because, as you say, as long as we are incarnated we can’t sever the will from thinking, from feeling, from sensing. Hence the only way to responsibly differentiate is to sit in our ‘control tower’ of will-thinking and coordinate our bodily activity in a way that both honors its divine, ideal perfection, and also regulates its vulnerability to the potential tyranny of the soul. There's a middle ground to be found.

In this sense, I think that our line of action should work primarily downward: with our willed thoughts we educate our soul, which in turn will regulate bodily activity in moderation, under the guidance of the I. So for example when it comes to coffee consumption, I would say that, if one experiences addiction - like the guy in the interview Cleric shared, who felt that coffee is like psychedelics! - then it should be regulated. The tumorous loop of arbitrary desire should be bursted. In my direct experience, though coffee is (moderately) pleasant, coffee doesn’t do that at all. It’s not difficult for me to abstain from it, so I am not sure there would be value in eliminating it, unless I wanted to mortify the body, which as I said, I don’t aim to. However, I could consider eliminating it, if my present understanding turned out to be incorrect. If you will, coffee for me is pleasurable in the same way that taking a shower at the preferred water temperature is. Sure, I could take it 3 degrees colder or warmer, and it could be a good experiment for some specific reason. But just for the sake of adding some discomfort to everyday life, I don’t believe it makes sense.

For the other example you mention, screen exposure/computer use, it’s similar. I believe it entirely depends on how our willed thoughts direct that type of bodily engagement. Do we do it with the aim of disrupting our bodily rhythms - either purposefully, or because we succumb to arbitrary desires? Or do we put effort in abdicating the least possible amount of agency in every aspect of the experience, while still engaging with it, aware of what we would miss if we were to completely abstain from it?

Now coming to psychedelics, it should stand to reason to proceed similarly. Our ego should consider such form of bodily engagement, and see whether it honors and facilitates the ideal bodily rhythms as structured by the hierarchies (like moderated satisfaction of bodily desires does) and/or, as a technology, whether its use can facilitate spiritual development, under condition of maintaining control, like it is for computer use, where, if we are able to maintain perceptual and ideal control, we are rewarded with otherwise inaccessible content and interactions. But do psychedelics even offer similar possibilities? Is there any immense value we miss by staying away from psychedelics, as we would miss, should we decide to stay away from the wealth of content and interaction accessible through the web? And is it possible to remain in control of one’s own agency, when the lawfulness of perception is shut down in a forceful way?

What would be the spiritually acceptable reason to try and induce imagination exogenously, from the bottom-up, once one is able to willingly enter the imaginative state through concentration? How would that not equal the introduction of a contender to the soul forces? Why is there a need to pump up the imaginative muscles, not only with spiritual exercise, but also with spiritual steroids? And here, of course, the connection becomes evident with the other principle I previously mentioned, that you for some reason entirely rejected, calling it an opinion, when applied to psychoactive: that in the times of the consciousness soul, we are called to develop our I consciously. 'Consciously' not only means with full engagement of active thinking. It also means with the least possible disruptions to the ideal rhythms of the physical body, that we don’t master. Those rhythms are mastered for us, just like individuation was mastered for ancient man, by the hierarchies. Now we've got individuation. How is it not defiant against the hierarchies, instead of quietly developing individuation into its own garden, within the limits of its proper context - that is, through thinking work - to attempt taking over the rhythms of physicality, or even only playing around with them, jumping across multiple borders of lawfulness?


Cleric has recently referred to future technological devices as amplifiers of inner intents:
Cleric K wrote: Thu May 23, 2024 1:53 pm The devices of the future won't be something that utilize our better understanding of the laws of the physical-world-in-itself, but instead will be something like amplifiers of our inner intents. Our L-movements would cascade through the stages of the device and manifest on a larger scale. Here, however, even deeper moral coordination will be needed. Even if we could get our hands on one such future device today, it would simply not work. No one would be able to set it in motion. This is simply due to the fact that the devices don't utilize some hardcoded laws of Nature that are immutable and independent of everything else

I think that using psychedelics as boosters, or amplifiers, of spiritual development, runs great risk of being a well fitting example of the error described in the quote. Present-day technology such as psychoactives, inscribed as they are in the hardcoded laws of chemistry, can’t be hijacked in that way. This is because we don’t master those laws today, other than externally. We don’t master them from the inside out. The Hierarchies do.

So this is how I would start moving our thinking around a bit. In any case, I see that one could argue that change happens in streams, and not as a unitary front, therefore innovation in this field is OK; one could also argue that waking state is maintained because of micro-dosing; one could argue that rhythms are not disrupted, but simply explored; and there's certainly a whole list of other possible arguments. In this sense, I realize that what I'm expressing, at the end of the day, is still an opinion. To conclude on a lighter note, let’s say that when it comes to the administration of the physical body in our times, I am perhaps more on the conservative side, rather than on the liberal one. :)

Thanks for exploring and sharing these ideas, Federica.

Let me state up front that the overarching idea I am working with here is that a thought like 'defying the hierarchies' shouldn't be the guiding light for my understanding of these issues. I think most of your post above aligns with that same idea, especially when addressing the spectrum of spiritual experiences you are already familiar with, like computer technology and coffee. We have much experience with how these modulate our cognitive-perceptual life and, if we have done a bit of inner work, we can sense the differentiations when our spiritual activity engages with them versus abstaining from them. We can place these differentiations within the context of our ideals for self-development that, in turn, will also coincide with World development. Because of that inner experience, we are motivated to move our imaginative activity through the ideal relations in a thorough and nuanced manner.

You carefully went through the process of imaginatively thinking through various circumstances, weighing their spiritual costs/benefits in those circumstances. You rightly call attention to moderation and balance. Indeed the 'mortification' of desire not only isn't a great idea, it isn't actually possible through the ascetic measures alone - the underlying desires will simply be redirected to another aspect of soul life and the pressure will burst from there. Such ascetic practices should only come as a side effect of inner development that has transmuted certain bodily desires into the Love for spiritual development in harmonic alignment with the hierarchies, through the Wisdom of knowing what tasks await us across the threshold of physical death. Then we may say, "Once I cross the threshold and ascend to the spiritual worlds to co-participate in fashioning the curvatures of Earthly destiny, I cannot carry my physical desires with me, they will need to be burned off, so I choose to start doing some of that work right now during Earthy life to help maintain continuity of consciousness."

So all of that is a rigorous and healthy approach, in my view, and should be maintained as much as possible. It is a living into and together with phenomenal experience. And you seem to maintain that approach for a bit when moving to psychedelics, but I'm not sure how long that lasts. When we move to an unfamiliar spectrum of experience like psychedelics (unfamiliar for both you and myself), I think there is a strong temptation to switch back to vague notions of 'defying the hierarchies' or something similar and let that guide our thinking rather than inner experience and imaginative explorations. You ask the following questions:

But do psychedelics even offer similar possibilities? Is there any immense value we miss by staying away from psychedelics, as we would miss, should we decide to stay away from the wealth of content and interaction accessible through the web? And is it possible to remain in control of one’s own agency, when the lawfulness of perception is shut down in a forceful way?

What would be the spiritually acceptable reason to try and induce imagination exogenously, from the bottom-up, once one is able to willingly enter the imaginative state through concentration? How would that not equal the introduction of a contender to the soul forces? Why is there a need to pump up the imaginative muscles, not only with spiritual exercise, but also with spiritual steroids?

For me, these are completely open-ended questions at this time. I don't see any clear-cut answers to them. I can certainly form some loose intuitions of what the answers may look like, but in all cases, I think the answers would be accompanied by "it depends, under these circumstances, etc." It would positively pain me to answer these questions with the broad stroke that intervening in the deeper ideal rhythms is a defiance against the hierarchies. As you know, the process of evolution is precisely taking over creative responsibility for the rhythms the hierarchies previously maintained for us, as they withdraw from these spaces due to their own evolution. The first domain that should happen is within our cognitive-perceptual (neurosensory) rhythms. Again, these are all 'physical' rhythms insofar as the "I" can only think, feel, and act on the physical plane through the physical body (which is a compressed image of the more subtle bodies).

You are also correct to point out this should happen in stages. We need great wisdom and intuitive flexibility when evaluating what rhythms we can be involved in, depending on our inner stage of development. That is a very intimate and individual question for each person to decide. At best, I am comfortable saying that, once someone else like Cleric has experimented with psychedelics, investigated its effects, and reported them here, we can place a certain amount of confidence in the facts reported and investigate those facts imaginatively without physically experimenting with psychedelics ourselves. It is the same principle with many facts conveyed through Steiner's spiritual research. But someone had to dare to take these steps inward into unfamiliar territory, into the deeper spaces of ideal rhythms, to methodically trace their phenomenal shadows, and we may be called to do so in the future as well, in our own way. I remain open to that possibility and that redemptive challenge.

For example, my parents are going to this Arsha Vidya retreat in about a month and I may join them for a few days to practice some Eastern-style meditations and yoga and explore the Vedanta teachings. That is not something I would recommend spiritual seekers start out with or employ in a one-sided way, or even on a consistent basis. Nevertheless, it is an opportunity to move my imaginative and physical activity through a wider phenomenal spectrum and therefore kindle deeper intuitions. It is something that I have determined can be responsibly approached at this time for limited spiritual functions. The last thing I would want to do is have this evaluation determined for me beforehand by a rule that has been externalized, like 'Eastern meditative techniques are defiance against the individuated 'I' principle'. In my view, the evaluation should always be kindled anew based on evolving circumstances, first and foremost my own intuitive development.

Re: GA 13 - Rudolf Steiner's "Secret Science in Outline"

Posted: Thu Jul 04, 2024 7:16 pm
by AshvinP
AshvinP wrote: Thu Jul 04, 2024 3:31 pm
Federica wrote: Tue Jul 02, 2024 2:46 pm As human beings, our goal in this area of physical activity is primarily one of moderation. We are called to willingly replicate the infused wisdom that regulates those maintaining activities in the animal, plant, and maybe even mineral realms, so that the activities don't override this function of preservation. Clearly, we have to be vigilant that the soul doesn’t take over those activities as instruments for the satisfaction of arbitrary desires. However, my present understanding in this area is that there is no point in intentionally mortifying natural desires with the exclusive intention of desensitizing the body to pleasure. Maybe that was appropriate in past millennia, I am not sure, but today, when we are supposed to willingly develop the capacity to regulate those desires, such mortification reads to me as defiance towards the hierarchies and scorn to the true self, just in the same way as psychedelics do. It would be like saying: "I don’t trust I can regulate the desires myself, so I try to amputate them, erase them, by overriding them with physical pain; and I don’t trust the body to be the appropriate support for incarnated spiritual development as it is in its rhythms, shaped by the hierarchies." So I try to bend it, in its rhythms. For example I deprive it of sleep, as a principle, and wake up at 04:00 every morning, I deprive it of sexuality as a principle, I make it rest on bare wood, I sit cross-legged until my joints hurt, I only eat stale bread, etcetera.
Indeed the 'mortification' of desire not only isn't a great idea, it isn't actually possible through the ascetic measures alone - the underlying desires will simply be redirected to another aspect of soul life and the pressure will burst from there. Such ascetic practices should only come as a side effect of inner development that has transmuted certain bodily desires into the Love for spiritual development in harmonic alignment with the hierarchies, through the Wisdom of knowing what tasks await us across the threshold of physical death. Then we may say, "Once I cross the threshold and ascend to the spiritual worlds to co-participate in fashioning the curvatures of Earthly destiny, I cannot carry my physical desires with me, they will need to be burned off, so I choose to start doing some of that work right now during Earthy life to help maintain continuity of consciousness."

On this topic of mortifying desires, I just came across a great little article:

https://eugeneterekhin.substack.com/p/b ... g-our-true
According to C.S. Lewis, our problem is not that we want too much but that we want too little.
Our Lord finds our desires, not too strong, but too weak. We are half-hearted creatures, fooling about with drink and sex and ambition when infinite joy is offered us, like an ignorant child who wants to go on making mud pies in a slum because he cannot imagine what is meant by the offer of a holiday at the sea. We are far too easily pleased. The Weight of Glory
In Divine Comedy, Cocytus is a frozen lake at the center of hell symbolizing the death of all desires. People in hell don’t want anything.

Conversely, the closer the person gets to Paradise the more his desires are awakened. Paradise liberates one’s desires. Hell paralyses them.

It seems paradoxical, almost unthinkable, that we want too little. Isn’t it some mistake? Don’t we want too much, not too little? After all, the people in Dante’s Inferno are torn by innumerable passions and desires… However, C.S. Lewis calls these desires “making mud pies.”

All those languishing in hell have killed their desires by trying to satisfy them without the use of imagination.

Lewis says: “…because he cannot imagine what is meant by the offer of a holiday at the sea.”

There are two ways to kill a desire. One is to grab the object of your desire, and the other one is to deny the desire altogether. In both cases, the desire is killed.

When we want something and grab the object of our desire as if it were the end in itself, we kill it. One obvious example is food. If I go to a restaurant and start satisfying every craving I have, I will end up sick. By grabbing what I want, I kill my desire.

Renunciation of all desires is no less harmful because by denying my desires altogether I drain the very lifeblood of the soul and sink into the Cocytus of my own making. I become frozen like the paralytic at the Bethesda pool who gave up all his desires after failing to get healed for twenty years.

Jesus asked him the question he dreaded the most: “Do you want to get healed?”

He knew the man’s desires had died and wanted to resurrect them. The moment the paralytic looked into his eyes and dared to desire again, he was healed. We are drawn out of the Cocytus of our own making by the magnetic pull of the resurrected Desire.

In Lewis’s mind, we need the imagination to follow the path of desire without killing it through excess or renunciation. If we can imagine “the holiday at the sea,” our desire will lead us “unto their desired haven.” Psalm 107:30.

The food I see on the table is just a symbol. If I could imagine what true food was I would not confuse it for the final reality. I would glimpse the “true food” behind this piece of cake without turning the image into the ultimate reality. Imagination would save me from creating idols out of images.

Idols kill desire. Icons revitalize it. Idols arrest our gaze and tie it up to the visible and tangible. Icons invite our gaze to penetrate through the surface and grasp the unseen.

Only then can our Desire be truly satisfied, as Jesus said,

“I have food to eat that you don't know about.”

He knew that a Feast was being prepared by the Father. He was participating in it as he saw more and more people gathering around the Table. He could see (imagine) all that and did not settle for too little.

The road to Paradise is the path of Desire. But we can’t follow that path without the imagination proper. Without the imagination, we will settle for mud pies and kill our Desire through excess of renunciation.

Our desires are doorways into Paradise if we can imagine what they really point to – the infinite holiday at the sea.

Re: GA 13 - Rudolf Steiner's "Secret Science in Outline"

Posted: Thu Jul 04, 2024 8:05 pm
by Federica
AshvinP wrote: Thu Jul 04, 2024 7:16 pm
AshvinP wrote: Thu Jul 04, 2024 3:31 pm
Federica wrote: Tue Jul 02, 2024 2:46 pm As human beings, our goal in this area of physical activity is primarily one of moderation. We are called to willingly replicate the infused wisdom that regulates those maintaining activities in the animal, plant, and maybe even mineral realms, so that the activities don't override this function of preservation. Clearly, we have to be vigilant that the soul doesn’t take over those activities as instruments for the satisfaction of arbitrary desires. However, my present understanding in this area is that there is no point in intentionally mortifying natural desires with the exclusive intention of desensitizing the body to pleasure. Maybe that was appropriate in past millennia, I am not sure, but today, when we are supposed to willingly develop the capacity to regulate those desires, such mortification reads to me as defiance towards the hierarchies and scorn to the true self, just in the same way as psychedelics do. It would be like saying: "I don’t trust I can regulate the desires myself, so I try to amputate them, erase them, by overriding them with physical pain; and I don’t trust the body to be the appropriate support for incarnated spiritual development as it is in its rhythms, shaped by the hierarchies." So I try to bend it, in its rhythms. For example I deprive it of sleep, as a principle, and wake up at 04:00 every morning, I deprive it of sexuality as a principle, I make it rest on bare wood, I sit cross-legged until my joints hurt, I only eat stale bread, etcetera.
Indeed the 'mortification' of desire not only isn't a great idea, it isn't actually possible through the ascetic measures alone - the underlying desires will simply be redirected to another aspect of soul life and the pressure will burst from there. Such ascetic practices should only come as a side effect of inner development that has transmuted certain bodily desires into the Love for spiritual development in harmonic alignment with the hierarchies, through the Wisdom of knowing what tasks await us across the threshold of physical death. Then we may say, "Once I cross the threshold and ascend to the spiritual worlds to co-participate in fashioning the curvatures of Earthly destiny, I cannot carry my physical desires with me, they will need to be burned off, so I choose to start doing some of that work right now during Earthy life to help maintain continuity of consciousness."

On this topic of mortifying desires, I just came across a great little article:

https://eugeneterekhin.substack.com/p/b ... g-our-true
According to C.S. Lewis, our problem is not that we want too much but that we want too little.
Our Lord finds our desires, not too strong, but too weak. We are half-hearted creatures, fooling about with drink and sex and ambition when infinite joy is offered us, like an ignorant child who wants to go on making mud pies in a slum because he cannot imagine what is meant by the offer of a holiday at the sea. We are far too easily pleased. The Weight of Glory
In Divine Comedy, Cocytus is a frozen lake at the center of hell symbolizing the death of all desires. People in hell don’t want anything.

Conversely, the closer the person gets to Paradise the more his desires are awakened. Paradise liberates one’s desires. Hell paralyses them.

It seems paradoxical, almost unthinkable, that we want too little. Isn’t it some mistake? Don’t we want too much, not too little? After all, the people in Dante’s Inferno are torn by innumerable passions and desires… However, C.S. Lewis calls these desires “making mud pies.”

All those languishing in hell have killed their desires by trying to satisfy them without the use of imagination.

Lewis says: “…because he cannot imagine what is meant by the offer of a holiday at the sea.”

There are two ways to kill a desire. One is to grab the object of your desire, and the other one is to deny the desire altogether. In both cases, the desire is killed.

When we want something and grab the object of our desire as if it were the end in itself, we kill it. One obvious example is food. If I go to a restaurant and start satisfying every craving I have, I will end up sick. By grabbing what I want, I kill my desire.

Renunciation of all desires is no less harmful because by denying my desires altogether I drain the very lifeblood of the soul and sink into the Cocytus of my own making. I become frozen like the paralytic at the Bethesda pool who gave up all his desires after failing to get healed for twenty years.

Jesus asked him the question he dreaded the most: “Do you want to get healed?”

He knew the man’s desires had died and wanted to resurrect them. The moment the paralytic looked into his eyes and dared to desire again, he was healed. We are drawn out of the Cocytus of our own making by the magnetic pull of the resurrected Desire.

In Lewis’s mind, we need the imagination to follow the path of desire without killing it through excess or renunciation. If we can imagine “the holiday at the sea,” our desire will lead us “unto their desired haven.” Psalm 107:30.

The food I see on the table is just a symbol. If I could imagine what true food was I would not confuse it for the final reality. I would glimpse the “true food” behind this piece of cake without turning the image into the ultimate reality. Imagination would save me from creating idols out of images.

Idols kill desire. Icons revitalize it. Idols arrest our gaze and tie it up to the visible and tangible. Icons invite our gaze to penetrate through the surface and grasp the unseen.

Only then can our Desire be truly satisfied, as Jesus said,

“I have food to eat that you don't know about.”

He knew that a Feast was being prepared by the Father. He was participating in it as he saw more and more people gathering around the Table. He could see (imagine) all that and did not settle for too little.

The road to Paradise is the path of Desire. But we can’t follow that path without the imagination proper. Without the imagination, we will settle for mud pies and kill our Desire through excess of renunciation.

Our desires are doorways into Paradise if we can imagine what they really point to – the infinite holiday at the sea.

I will later write a longer reply to address your entire (previous) post. However, as a teaser, I would like to ask you this question: when it comes to bodily desires - which I argued should be regulated, but not mortified for the only sake of boosting spiritual development - you agreed that mortification isn't a great idea, and should only come as side effect of advanced inner development. But why don't you adopt in this respect the same open-ended approach as for psychedelics? Why don't you say: "I am no expert in self-inflicted physical mortification, it would positively pain me to answer these questions with a broad stroke. After all, someone has to do it and the last thing I want is to have a rule telling me beforehand that mortification should only come as a side effect of inner development. I want to remain open that it can trigger spiritual development as well."



PS: An entirely separate note about the idea that beyond the threshold one will need to burn off the desires, hence one can choose to start doing some of that work during Earthy life to help maintain continuity of consciousness.
I believe one will have to burn off the arbitrary desires only, not the moderated desires (if they were moderated appropriately of course). But if the lawful bodily desires are perfect, ideal rhythms they should dissolve with the life body, without requirement for the soul to compensate for them, to the extent it didn't take them over - which I would agree should be extremely difficult, but there must be an ideal middle ground where the desire can be satisfied without deformations.

Re: GA 13 - Rudolf Steiner's "Secret Science in Outline"

Posted: Thu Jul 04, 2024 10:53 pm
by AshvinP
Federica wrote: Thu Jul 04, 2024 8:05 pm I will later write a longer reply to address your entire (previous) post. However, as a teaser, I would like to ask you this question: when it comes to bodily desires - which I argued should be regulated, but not mortified for the only sake of boosting spiritual development - you agreed that mortification isn't a great idea, and should only come as side effect of advanced inner development. But why don't you adopt in this respect the same open-ended approach as for psychedelics? Why don't you say: "I am no expert in self-inflicted physical mortification, it would positively pain me to answer these questions with a broad stroke. After all, someone has to do it and the last thing I want is to have a rule telling me beforehand that mortification should only come as a side effect of inner development. I want to remain open that it can trigger spiritual development as well."



PS: An entirely separate note about the idea that beyond the threshold one will need to burn off the desires, hence one can choose to start doing some of that work during Earthy life to help maintain continuity of consciousness.
I believe one will have to burn off the arbitrary desires only, not the moderated desires (if they were moderated appropriately of course). But if the lawful bodily desires are perfect, ideal rhythms they should dissolve with the life body, without requirement for the soul to compensate for them, to the extent it didn't take them over - which I would agree should be extremely difficult, but there must be an ideal middle ground where the desire can be satisfied without deformations.

I suppose we weren't fully agreeing about the 'mortification' because I did intend that same open-ended approach. I can imagine all of the practices you mentioned fitting into a healthy spiritual practice IF the intention is born from Wisdom and Love, i.e. expanding knowledge of the holistic spiritual relations and the desire to freely harmonize one's activity with them. The expanding inner knowledge should be the foundation for the ascetic practices rather than the latter being a means to the former or some other myopic goals. It would be the same principle with psychedelic use. If we simply commit to such ascetic practices without inner knowledge at this stage, it will lead to a secret feeling of oppression by the Divine and corresponding resentment.

All desires that can be satisfied only through the physical body are burned off in Kamaloca, including hunger, thirst, sexual drive, etc. These are all rooted in the astral body. We could say Kamaloca as a stage of experience only became necessary through the Fall, since the spirit decohered the imaginative spectrum and attached its longing to physicalized sensations. If these were not burned off, they would remain as impurities in the higher worlds, continual distractions from the creative work to be accomplished. Clearly, we shouldn't expect to sublimate all such desires in a single incarnation, but over some iterations, retracing spiritual activity back through the Fall, we will draw sustenance directly from the etheric spectrum, reproduce asexually, etc.