Philosophical Speculations

Jim Cross wrote: ↑Mon Jun 07, 2021 12:37 pm
Circuits produce energy - that is somewhat less tangible physical quality that can feedback to the more material parts of the brain. That is the "film" to use your term.

That “self aware” waste energy is some magical stuff!

Simon Adams wrote: ↑Mon Jun 07, 2021 1:51 pm

Jim Cross wrote: ↑Mon Jun 07, 2021 12:37 pm
Circuits produce energy - that is somewhat less tangible physical quality that can feedback to the more material parts of the brain. That is the "film" to use your term.

That “self aware” waste energy is some magical stuff!

I never never said it was waste energy. In fact, it is nature using feedback for adaptive advantage.

Did you ever see this article?

https://www.discovermagazine.com/techno ... us-machine

Jim Cross wrote: ↑Mon Jun 07, 2021 12:37 pm Circuits produce energy - that is somewhat less tangible physical quality that can feedback to the more material parts of the brain. That is the "film" to use your term.

Wha? So that's a "no" to first law of thermodynamics (physicalism = causally closed system)? What do you mean by "energy", then?

SanteriSatama wrote: ↑Mon Jun 07, 2021 3:49 pm

Jim Cross wrote: ↑Mon Jun 07, 2021 12:37 pm Circuits produce energy - that is somewhat less tangible physical quality that can feedback to the more material parts of the brain. That is the "film" to use your term.

Wha? So that's a "no" to first law of thermodynamics (physicalism = causally closed system)? What do you mean by "energy", then?

You aren't aware that moving ions, as do the ions in a firing neuron, generates a field and the field carries energy?

Jim Cross wrote: ↑Mon Jun 07, 2021 2:00 pm
I never never said it was waste energy. In fact, it is nature using feedback for adaptive advantage.

Did you ever see this article?

https://www.discovermagazine.com/techno ... us-machine

I hadn’t and it’s interesting, but equally it’s crazy speculation to think that this could ever result in self awareness or consciousness. You’ve still got current and logic gates, taps and water as Bernardo correctly describes an analogy. No amount of plumbing gives you anything other than a logical calculating machine.

Simon Adams wrote: ↑Mon Jun 07, 2021 4:16 pm

Jim Cross wrote: ↑Mon Jun 07, 2021 2:00 pm
I never never said it was waste energy. In fact, it is nature using feedback for adaptive advantage.

Did you ever see this article?

https://www.discovermagazine.com/techno ... us-machine

I hadn’t and it’s interesting, but equally it’s crazy speculation to think that this could ever result in self awareness or consciousness. You’ve still got current and logic gates, taps and water as Bernardo correctly describes an analogy. No amount of plumbing gives you anything other than a logical calculating machine.

Actually not quite. Once you have fields involved, then analog and wave computing are possible as well integration.

I may have provided this link before but there is a distinct limitations in a Turing machine that are overcome with simulations.

We will argue that machines implementing non-classical logic might be better suited for simulation rather than computation (a la Turing). It is thus reasonable to pit simulation as an alternative to computation and ask whether the brain, rather than computing, is simulating a model of the world in order to make predictions and guide behavior. If so, this suggests a hardware supporting dynamics more akin to a quantum many-body field theory.

https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.10 ... -95972-6_3

One other thing.

With the brain, we are talking about something that is very dynamic electrically. Billions of ions are flowing through membranes in millisecond time frames throughout the brain. All of those flows are generating small EM fields.

We know the the overall level of electrical activity correlates with brain state - less activity for a sleeping brain than an awake brain. We know this activity correlates also with reported cognition. MRIs show some consistent brain activity for the same visual or auditory stimuli, for example. We know we can stimulate the surface of brain with electrodes and generate qualia or evoke memories. We stimulate it with EM fields and alter consciousness.

Jim Cross wrote: ↑Mon Jun 07, 2021 4:01 pm

SanteriSatama wrote: ↑Mon Jun 07, 2021 3:49 pm

Jim Cross wrote: ↑Mon Jun 07, 2021 12:37 pm Circuits produce energy - that is somewhat less tangible physical quality that can feedback to the more material parts of the brain. That is the "film" to use your term.

Wha? So that's a "no" to first law of thermodynamics (physicalism = causally closed system)? What do you mean by "energy", then?

You aren't aware that moving ions, as do the ions in a firing neuron, generates a field and the field carries energy?

Sorry, was reading the text as written, not realizing that "produce" means "carries". Or whatever. So are you now saying that "points with numerical values" carry, but don't produce energy?

You didn't answer what "energy" means. Perhaps you could tell what "point" means?

SanteriSatama wrote: ↑Mon Jun 07, 2021 6:10 pm

Jim Cross wrote: ↑Mon Jun 07, 2021 4:01 pm

SanteriSatama wrote: ↑Mon Jun 07, 2021 3:49 pm

Wha? So that's a "no" to first law of thermodynamics (physicalism = causally closed system)? What do you mean by "energy", then?

You aren't aware that moving ions, as do the ions in a firing neuron, generates a field and the field carries energy?

Sorry, was reading the text as written, not realizing that "produce" means "carries". Or whatever. So are you now saying that "points with numerical values" carry, but don't produce energy?

You didn't answer what "energy" means. Perhaps you could tell what "point" means?

Where do I use the word "point" anywhere up to now?

I'm just saying the firing of neurons - the movement of the ions through membranes - generate an electrical field. An electrical field has energy.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_ ... tric_field

Of course, it doesn't create the energy from nothing and neither the brain or living organisms are closed systems. They metabolize food from the environment to create energy for life processes. The human brain, in particular, is one of the largest consumers of that energy.

Here is a quote that uses the word "point" that might be useful.

Force fields physically integrate complex information that may be simultaneously downloaded from any point in the field. This is apparent to anyone who views a TV show that has been transmitted from a single transmitter to their smartphone, alongside a thousand other people who may simultaneously view the same program on their phones in a thousand different locations. Moreover, an EM field can, like an integrated circuit, compute.

https://academic.oup.com/nc/article/202 ... 16/5909853

Jim Cross wrote: ↑Mon Jun 07, 2021 7:01 pm Where do I use the word "point" anywhere up to now?

You refer to physical fields. I look up the definition of those. They start with word "point". Like in your quote:

point in the field.

(...)

EM field can, like an integrated circuit, compute.

This does not answer my simple question, what is a point? If you believe that points can compute, you should be able to tell what a point is, and how points compute? I don't think that is too much to ask, but only fair?