Philosophical Speculations

AshvinP wrote: ↑Wed Feb 05, 2025 2:19 pm ...

Federica wrote: ↑Wed Feb 05, 2025 10:33 pm

AshvinP wrote: ↑Wed Feb 05, 2025 2:19 pm ...

It seems like you are going from one edge to the other and back, but I can't either forsee or follow these moves. I'll waste some more energy on that tomorrow, but in any case,

can you please clearly explain the logic that makes you conclude: “And if we aren't attaining that perception, we will surely prefer that others aren't either (except for the initiates and masters 'out there', but surely not on this forum).”?

AshvinP wrote: ↑Thu Feb 06, 2025 12:47 am

Federica wrote: ↑Wed Feb 05, 2025 10:33 pm

AshvinP wrote: ↑Wed Feb 05, 2025 2:19 pm ...

It seems like you are going from one edge to the other and back, but I can't either forsee or follow these moves. I'll waste some more energy on that tomorrow, but in any case,

Well, if we approach such discussions with the attitude that we are "wasting energy", it's no wonder we won't follow the points made. Another option is to approach it with a healthier attitude and as an ongoing intuitive exploration, and ask questions for clarification about how things relate together. Then the pendulum can continue swinging back and forth and everyone can gain from it.

can you please clearly explain the logic that makes you conclude: “And if we aren't attaining that perception, we will surely prefer that others aren't either (except for the initiates and masters 'out there', but surely not on this forum).”?

Yes, this is a pattern we have seen on the forum often, Eugene being the primary example (simply due to his amount of exchanges with us). If someone on the forum was pointing to certain archetypal soul habits - expectations, assumptions, etc. - that were shaping his reasoning, his first reaction would be to feel insulted and become defensive, like it's simply inconceivable that someone on this forum would have something to teach him. This is an easy reaction to understand. After all, if we can hold everyone we encounter and who gives us feedback as our equal or below (in spiritual knowledge), then we never need to take anything they say too seriously.

For him, it was taken to the extreme that even Steiner and the initiates were still tinkering around in the lower realms, missing the purity of Divine consciousness. But this archetypal tendency can manifest in less extreme ways when we feel like our views are being challenged by others. As long as we can continue to call their knowledge and judgment into doubt, we can avoid taking the feedback too seriously.

Federica wrote: ↑Thu Feb 06, 2025 4:34 pm Oh I don't approach the discussion with that attitude. I was merely quoting from the other thread. Regarding the pattern of doubting someone's clairvoyance in order to avoid the discomfort of evolving one's views and actions: yes, this can be one reason to prefer that others aren't attaining spiritual sight. Still, there may be other opposing reasons that overcome that one, to make someone who hasn't attained spiritual sight wish that others have. For example, the meaninglessness or unease of endlessly fumbling in the dark, if no one in the group has any clue or inspired idea to submit to the attention of others. So I don't agree that such person would surely prefer that others lack vision. Moreover, taking feedback seriously doesn't automatically require or imply executing it literally. In conclusion, one can only truly be convinced by oneself, by an inner process of TFW. Feedback is invaluable to inspire and help to set things in motion, still there could be reasons to consider a certain feedback serious and relevant and still not act upon it.

I could be wrong about this, but... Across the threshold there is no outer or inner physiognomy on which to rock our features as clothes, to start with. One is rather scattered across the entire soul space.

AshvinP wrote: ↑Thu Feb 06, 2025 6:03 pm

Federica wrote: ↑Thu Feb 06, 2025 4:34 pm Oh I don't approach the discussion with that attitude. I was merely quoting from the other thread. Regarding the pattern of doubting someone's clairvoyance in order to avoid the discomfort of evolving one's views and actions: yes, this can be one reason to prefer that others aren't attaining spiritual sight. Still, there may be other opposing reasons that overcome that one, to make someone who hasn't attained spiritual sight wish that others have. For example, the meaninglessness or unease of endlessly fumbling in the dark, if no one in the group has any clue or inspired idea to submit to the attention of others. So I don't agree that such person would surely prefer that others lack vision. Moreover, taking feedback seriously doesn't automatically require or imply executing it literally. In conclusion, one can only truly be convinced by oneself, by an inner process of TFW. Feedback is invaluable to inspire and help to set things in motion, still there could be reasons to consider a certain feedback serious and relevant and still not act upon it.

To make this more concrete, so that we are not speculatively dancing around such topics, let's use a concrete example from this thread. You wrote:

I could be wrong about this, but... Across the threshold there is no outer or inner physiognomy on which to rock our features as clothes, to start with. One is rather scattered across the entire soul space.

Then you followed that in the next comment with - "I have never researched this topic in particular, and I don't have Steiner quotes to point to."

Now if I give you feedback that this is just one of many recent comments that reveal an inner pattern of forming and expressing opinions on various topics without the proper context, will you be comfortable admitting that I am in a position to perceive this inner pattern and provide that feedback? Does anything stir within you that makes you feel quite uncomfortable with doing that?

I'm just wondering if we can ever have productive discussions anymore, because exploring any spiritual topics on this forum will invariably lead to such kinds of feedback, especially if one's general approach is to feel their way through such topics, form many opinions on them, and express those opinions on other peoples' essays and posts. Whenever I have presented such feedback in the recent past, it has been met with a certain obstinacy, and even comments to the effect that I am in no position to discuss these topics.