Anthroposophy as Fascio

[Federica]

[AshvinP]

No, we only deny that you are having these transcendent experiences. Just because you fantasize your own personal mystical experiences are of like nature to those of Christ's apostles, doesn't make it so. It has already been explained many times what your experiences actually are - the boundaries of your own intellectual ego smeared out into 'oneness'.

What is most remarkable is the zero sense of wonder and awe. When I mention the living experience of the Guardian or the imaginative life tableau, it's like these things don't even register as mysterious phenomena for you. They don't even prompt any questions. Everything that can possibly be experienced in life is felt to be already encompassed within your mind-container and, if it doesn't immediately resonate with your preferences, it is thrown into the bucket of 'deceptive dualistic hierarchy' and paid no more attention. You get more excitement from wallowing in externalized demiurge theories than from actually experiencing your own inner life of activity. It is a great cautionary tale for where the road of excessive pride and mystical reductionism leads us.

How do I know what kind of spirit is this " Guardian or the imaginative life tableau" is? We can never tell by the name or appearance of those spirits because the dark spirits are the masters of masquerade, but only by testing "if they are of God" by sensing their spiritual state when we directly encounter them. We should be VERY careful when dealing with discarnate spirits and never approach them with awe and submission until we test them.

Eugene, if you simply had the wonder to ask some questions about these things before immediately analyzing them in terms of your demiurgic schema, then you would have figured out the question doesn't even make sense. The imaginative life tableau isn't a spirit - it's the exact same thing you referred to previously as the 'life review' which we pass through at death. It's all of your first-person states of being during the current incarnation. And the Guardian that I mentioned is us, in our inner soul-nature which has passed through many incarnations and amassed various egoic entanglements. The way to test whether these experiences are 'of God' is through the Logos, the logical reasoning faculty which remains with us in our enlivened and expanded cognition through proper esoteric training. Our vague sensing, desiring, feeling, etc. cannot test anything, as we well know from living experience of the world around us. Only the discerning mind can test, and for that we need to remain open with humility and wonder long enough so we receive precise information which can inform our judgments. Otherwise we are only passing judgments with radically incomplete perspective and information.

But now, brethren, if I come to you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you unless I speak to you either by revelation, by knowledge, by prophesying, or by teaching? Even things without life, whether flute or harp, when they make a sound, unless they make a distinction in the sounds, how will it be known what is piped or played? For if the trumpet makes an uncertain sound, who will prepare for battle? So likewise you, unless you utter by the tongue words easy to understand, how will it be known what is spoken? For you will be speaking into the air. There are, it may be, so many kinds of languages in the world, and none of them is without significance. Therefore, if I do not know the meaning of the language, I shall be a foreigner to him who speaks, and he who speaks will be a foreigner to me. Even so you, since you are zealous for spiritual gifts, let it be for the edification of the church that you seek to excel.

Therefore let him who speaks in a tongue pray that he may interpret. For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my understanding is unfruitful. What is the conclusion then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will also pray with the understanding. I will sing with the spirit, and I will also sing with the understanding. Otherwise, if you bless with the spirit, how will he who occupies the place of the uninformed say “Amen” at your giving of thanks, since he does not understand what you say? For you indeed give thanks well, but the other is not edified.

[Stranger]

The way to test whether these experiences are 'of God' is through the Logos, the logical reasoning faculty which remains with us in our enlivened and expanded cognition through proper esoteric training.

OMG how twisted your esoteric teachings are! And you want me to believe in this "esoteric" BS? Logos is not "the faculty of logical reasoning", Logos is the Christ - the son, the Creating aspect of the Creator through whom "all things were made":

“In the beginning was the Word (Logos), and the Logos was with God, and the Logos was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. ... He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. .. The Word (Logos) became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.” John 1:1

"Jesus said, "I am the light that is over all things. I am all: from me all came forth, and to me all attained. Split a piece of wood; I am there. Lift up the stone, and you will find me there." The Gospel of Thomas

We do not recognize the Light of the Divine Logos that is shining right here in front of our eyes everywhere around and inside us. And even more, some of us even deny the very possibility that such direct recognition is possible.

[Lou Gold]

Ashvin,

"one must be well grounded or humble as humus"

Might we might say that humus is the placenta of resurrection?

Sure. Many virtues such as humility, inner courage, honesty, moderation, etc. purify and prepare the soil for the Spirit to be born anew within our life of willing-feeling-thinking. They inflow Cosmic impulses which nourish our soul. And, of course, there is no resurrection of the new without sacrifice of the old. "Do not put new wine into old wineskins or else both will be ruined." ]Now is a great time of year to take an honest inventory of all those inner-outer qualities which we are still clinging onto and unwilling to let go, which prevent us from proceeding to a new metamorphic stage of life.

I agree.

[AshvinP]

The way to test whether these experiences are 'of God' is through the Logos, the logical reasoning faculty which remains with us in our enlivened and expanded cognition through proper esoteric training.

OMG how twisted your esoteric teachings are! And you want me to believe in this "esoteric" BS? Logos is not "the faculty of logical reasoning", Logos is the Christ - the son, the Creating aspect of the Creator through whom "all things were made":

“In the beginning was the Word (Logos), and the Logos was with God, and the Logos was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. ... He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. .. The Word (Logos) became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.” John 1:1

"Jesus said, "I am the light that is over all things. I am all: from me all came forth, and to me all attained. Split a piece of wood; I am there. Lift up the stone, and you will find me there." The Gospel of Thomas

We do not recognize the Light of the Divine Logos that is shining right here in front of our eyes everywhere around and inside us. And even more, some of us even deny the very possibility that such direct recognition is possible.

This is why we keep telling you that you are stuck in abstractions, as a lifeline to grab onto so you can pull yourself out of them. When we speak of idealism, of the Cosmos being of idea-nature and thought-nature, do you take this seriously at all? Do you understand everything you see around you and within you - all things that were made - were intuited, inspired, and imagined by higher-order ideational perspectives in whom we live, move, and have our being? Is everything I just wrote a series of word-concepts which you 'agree' with but have no relevance for the way you scientifically understand the living and evolving phenomena of the World? If so, then you are mired in the depth of abstractions and should at least start wading your way out. It will take humility, courage and effort - you will need to set the prideful ego aside, like we all have to do on the path to genuine Self-knowledge.

When the Logos became flesh, that is nothing other than the incarnation of our ancient thinking faculty through the ongoing sacrifices of the Christ-being. We can know precisely where, when, how, and why this happened. It's all a matter of spiritual anthropology and history and science. The Christ events we are normally familiar with were the final act of this involutionary progression. It is only in the last 600 years or so that this thinking faculty descended so deep into matter - into the isolated consciousness soul - that we lost all conscious connection with the higher ideations which still supra-consciously animate our intellectual thinking. That happened so we could freely chart our way back to the spirit worlds with the help of inflowing Cosmic impulses. If we choose to have reverence, wonder, and awe for the living history of our Earth and our humanity, then we can reanimate our thinking and discover the profound truths of mythology and scripture in ways previously unimagined. If we choose to hover above that living history as something beneath us, not worthy of our gratitude and attention, then it's no surprise we will miss all of these truths and end up in the atomistic solipsism of modern mystical thinking.

[Stranger]

This is why we keep telling you that you are stuck in abstractions, as a lifeline to grab onto so you can pull yourself out of them. When we speak of idealism, of the Cosmos being of idea-nature and thought-nature, do you take this seriously at all?

Of course ,Cosmos is of idea-nature. What else can it possibly be if it all exists within the Divine Consciousness? But the Divine Consciousness itself is not an idea, it is THAT which creates and which is aware of all ideas, but which is not reducible to only its ideas. All Cosmos as a whole of all ideas is only a manifestation, only forms of the Divine Consciousness, but the Divine is more than all of its manifestations.

Essentially, your view is simply a so-called "negative pantheistic idealism": classical negative pantheism as "the rejection of any view that considers God as distinct from the universe" (Stanford encyclopedia of philosophy), blended with Platonic version of pantheistic idealism: the World is an Idea and so God is only an Idea. So in this view if you know the World and its ideal content, you know everything there is to know, there is no God beyond the World to know. Saying a tautology World=God simply means that essentially there is no God who creates and experiences the World, there is only the Idea-World to which all reality is entirely reduced. You can believe in it if you wish to, but to me it makes no sense and it is essentially not much different from materialism.

And all you claims that the WC needs to be known as inner first-person experience does not make it to make any more sense. Yeah, all ideas can be known from first-person perspective, but then what is THAT which knows them? Or is it the idea that knows itself (what a nonsense!)? Look into your direct first-person experience: what is it that knows all ideas appearing in your first-person experience? How is THAT which thinks and knows the ideas can itself be an idea? Who are you? That question entirely evades you.

[AshvinP]

This is why we keep telling you that you are stuck in abstractions, as a lifeline to grab onto so you can pull yourself out of them. When we speak of idealism, of the Cosmos being of idea-nature and thought-nature, do you take this seriously at all?

Of course ,Cosmos is of idea-nature. What else can it possibly be if it all exists within the Divine Consciousness? But the Divine Consciousness itself is not an idea, it is THAT which creates and which is aware of all ideas, but which is not reducible to only its ideas. All Cosmos and all ideas are only manifestations, only forms of the Divine Consciousness, but the Divine is more than all of its manifestations.

Essentially, your view is simply a so-called "negative pantheistic idealism": classical negative pantheism as "the rejection of any view that considers God as distinct from the universe" (Stanford encyclopedia of philosophy), blended with Platonic version of idealism: the World is an Idea and so God is only an Idea. So in this view if you know the World and its ideal content, you know everything there is to know, there is no God beyond the World to know. Saying a tautology World=God simply means that essentially there is no God who creates and experiences the World, there is only the Idea-World to which all reality is entirely reduced. You can believe in it if you wish to, but to me it makes no sense and it is essentially not much different from materialism.

And all you claims that the WC needs to be known as inner first-person experience does not make it to make any more sense. Yeah, all ideas can be known from first-person perspective, but then what is THAT which knows them? Or is it the idea that knows itself (what a nonsense!)? Look into your direct first-person experience: what is it that knows all ideas appearing in your first-person experience? How is THAT which thinks and knows the ideas can itself be an idea? Who are you? That question entirely evades you.

Look, I already know that if I point out how the above is Kantian dualism, you won't be able to see it. Your position is identical with his. He said, That which ideates the World cannot possibly incarnate its essence in human reason, so the latter is hopelessly cut off from the noumenon while on Earth. Then he went on to say, "give me matter and I will make a Universe", which is the only logical place one can go from that artificial and abstract duality. This fact is so obvious to anyone reading who is not mired in analytical philosophy anymore, but it simply can't be seen by those who are. That's why the addiction to abstract thinking simply needs to be unwound, so thinking can resurrect as something new. Otherwise it remains deaf and blind to what is staring it right in the face.

Don't we seek something more consistent, insightful and profound than materialism, which can't precisely and concretely explain what thinking is or where it came from? Can mysticism do any better? It can't even tell us the origin or nature of that capacity which allows us to lucidly know anything of the World or the Divine in the first place. It is in that capacity where the Divine meets man so that man may once again become Divine. The incarnation and resurrection of the God-man. Theosis. Any trite suggestion that "we are already Divine" is simply abstraction which can only hurt our concrete spiritual development which must unfold rhythmically in stages.

Let us consider an as yet very undeveloped human being from the following point of view: — his body is the most reasonable creation possible; it is a concentration of the entire Divine reason. But in it resides a very immature soul incapable of developing even an initial thought for the comprehension of the mysterious power ruling in the heart, brain or blood. Very gradually this soul develops to an understanding of the forces which have worked in the construction of this human body. But upon it is impressed the soul of a remote past; man stands there as the crown of creation. Aeons had to pass away before cosmic wisdom was united within that human body.

But in the soul of the undeveloped man the cosmic wisdom first begins to grow. At first she barely dreams of the profound thoughts of the universal spirit — the architect of the human being. Yet, everything lying within man in a state of sleep — the psycho-spiritual constitution will in future be understood by man. Cosmic thought has worked through countless ages, — worked creatively in nature in order ultimately to build the crown of its agelong activity — the human body. In it slumbers the cosmic wisdom, so as to recognise itself in the human soul, to construct in the human being an eye with which to perceive itself. Cosmic wisdom without, — cosmic wisdom within — operative in the present as in the past — operative far into a future whose sublimity may only be surmised. The most profound human emotions are evoked when we thus ponder the past and future.

When the soul begins to understand the wonder constructed by the wisdom of the cosmos — when she attains thoughtful clarity and illumined knowledge then the sun may represent the most glorious symbol of this inner awakening which opens for the soul the outer world through the medium of the senses. Man receives the light because the sun illuminates objects. What man sees in the outer world is the reflected sunlight. The sun awakens in the soul the power to perceive the outer world. The awakening sun-soul in man, beginning to discover; cosmic thought in the seasons of the year, recognises in the rising sun her liberator.

[Stranger]

Look, I already know that if I point out how the above is Kantian dualism, you won't be able to see it. Your position is identical with his. He said, That which ideates the World cannot possibly incarnate its essence in human reason, so the latter is hopelessly cut off from the noumenon while on Earth.

Nope, no cut-off whatsoever and no Kantian dualism because THAT which creates and experiences the World is Consciousness and because it is Consciousness, it can experience and lucidly know Itself directly as I AM, not through a reason, but directly, this is the transcendental experience, Jnana/Gnosis. But it can also manifest and incarnate itself into immanent world of ideas and into human reason and cognate all these ideas of the world with reason and so on. Theosis happens when a man recognizes this transcendental experience of Jnana and realizes their identity with I AM.

And God said unto Moses, “I Am That I Am.” And He said, “Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, 'I Am hath sent me unto you.'” (Exodus 3:14)

Before Abraham Was, I Am (John 8:48)

"I and the Father are one" (John 10:30)

"Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us ... I in them and you in me. May they be brought to complete unity" ((John 17))

Can mysticism do any better? It can't even tell us the origin or nature of that capacity which allows us to lucidly know anything of the World or the Divine in the first place.

This capacity to lucidly know and to think is the very ontological fundamental, which we call "Consciousness", and as being fundamental it requires no further explanation. And it is not an abstraction because each of us knows directly and experientially this very lucidity of knowing.

[Federica]

The pursuit of pure awareness takes too much for granted. It imagines that as consciousness becomes more and more detached, it can behold reality as invisible observer. However, the more we try to emancipate ourselves in this way from our human condition, the more we lose any means to be conscious of how this human condition might be shaping the experience that we imagine to be pure awareness.

…

If an alien with different consciousness does the same meditation, would its pure awareness be the same as ours? We don't really know. The reason is that we don't try to understand how our human condition shapes consciousness.

…

the small temporal ripples of our thinking are embedded into larger time-waves, which are embedded within even larger waves and so on. These waves are living, dynamic and we live along their full spectrum but we currently understand only the geometry of the ripples. We're moving through everything else as within an invisible labyrinth but we don't grasp its more encompassing geometry.

The thing is that we can't grasp that geometry by simply stepping more and more out of the movie. This would work if that geometry was similar to something we already know. But it isn't. And this is the great difficulty when speaking of these things. We need a dose of humility that no matter how much we see of the movie, unless we can experience the spiritual activity behind the panorama, we'll never be able to reconstruct the higher geometry from combinations of the lower. In the same sense no amount of rearranging 2D shapes in a plane, can produce a 3D form.

...

We're not free also if we simply try to objectify conscious phenomena by trying to step outside of them. We must realize that even this stepping outside is part of our conscious conduct as a human being on Earth and it is still governed by deeper arrows. That's why we need to be active because it is only in spiritual activity that we can gradually begin to perceive the images also of the deeper layers. If we simply step out of the movie, we're prematurely trying to circumvent the cascade of arrows that corresponds to our Earthly personality. Simply declaring the latter illusionary does nothing more than polarizing us across the Y axis. Instead, we should realize that even our spiritual activity which detaches us from our objectified personality, is only a level of the arrow cascade. Then we can begin to make discoveries. We'll understand that even though we deidentify with the personality, we're still being carried by at least one subconscious arrow - the desire to feel above and independent of the personality. When we gain consciousness of that arrow we realize that we're still within the cascade. This leads us to the only logical conclusion - that there are no shortcuts. We should simply spiral the hysteresis process into unity and begin gradually revealing the depth of the cascade. This we can accomplish only by starting from (T). The deeper rhythms are not revealed as abstract intellectual thoughts. When we speak a thought we feel its sound to be completely shaped by the intended meaning. When the (T) experience deepens, our thinking intents are additionally experienced as shaped by the deeper aspects of our being. But now these aspects are not external forces but are experienced as expression of spiritual activity extended holistically in time. Only in this way we begin to gain real self-knowledge. The deeper we go, the more we understand that the arrows there, modulate more and more shared aspects of reality and not simply our personal traits. Thus by going deeper, gradually self-knowledge becomes world-knowledge. And this is not difficult to understand. Only in our thoughts and feelings related to our body we're distinct. As we go deeper we encounter desires, needs which are not unique to ourselves but are shared also with our fellow human beings. All of this is mirrored in the common structure of the human body that we all share. Even further than this we encounter depth rhythms which are mirrored in life in man, animals and plants. Further we find the Cosmic rhythms, the planetary bodies, mirrored in the mineral element which is shared by all kingdoms. So the cascade of arrow rhythms is really a slice of all these worlds and exist along a gradient from universal common processes towards more and more differentiated and unique for each human body.

[Stranger]

Alright, time to wrap up, I think we arrived at a pretty clear understanding of what anthropology is ontologically based upon. It is essentially an ontology of Platonic pantheism: the whole World is and only is an Idea cognizable by reason (which is apparently also only an idea). It is essentially atheistic, there is no God-creator of the World and no consciousness (other than perhaps an idea of consciousness).

It is also very misleading that anthroposophy appeals to Christ and Buddha and their messages. Nowhere they ever mentioned that the world is only an idea. The message of Christ is clearly a theism, a premise of God-the-Father-Creator.

There is no way I would subscribe to this ontology, it makes no sense to me. I know as a fact of my direct experience that I AM and that I am conscious, that I AM consciousness that creates and lucidly experiences all kinds of conscious phenomena: ideas, precepts, feelings, imaginations etc (and not all of them are only ideas). And no esoteric teaching can ever convince me that this is not true and that my direct experience that I am conscious is an abstraction or illusion. Essentially it is no different from hard-nosed materialist Dan Dennet's claim that consciousness is an illusion. Our view, in philosophical terms, is cosmopsychism - the ontology of Cosmic Consciousness, and it is based on the undeniable fact of direct first-person experience that I AM conscious.