Meditation exercise on "separate me"

[AshvinP]

But the trap always comes when we feel like, in our current state, there is no further integrative work to be done. Right now this manifests to you as the opposition between the 'dualistic hierarchical path to Oneness' and the 'true nondual path', whereas previously it manifested to you as 'Christ-centered monopolizing path' and the 'Eastern diversity path'. Now the higher living perspective which has the degrees of freedom to integrate the former apparent opposition can be sought as well. This can't be done in any sort of theoretical and merely conceptual way, forced together by outer expressions. We can only begin to inwardly experience the hierarchical gradient of our lives rhythmically alternating between the Earth and the Cosmos as the Divine Oneness expressing its reality through our ceaseless intuitive becoming.

How many hundred times I need to repeat that there is ALWAYS further integrative work to be done even after nondual realization. The integrative work never ends in the realm of time, while it is already complete in timelessness. Cleric described it well in his model of "vertical" integration into the Oneness with the Divine essence, and "horizontal" integration with the ever-developing structures of intuitive becoming in the world of hierarchical forms. The key is: the intuitive becoming is incoherent with the Divine essence until the nondual Divine essence is realized in each individual soul. It is only when the "vertical" nondual realization of the essence is integrated with the intuitive becoming on the "horizontal" level when the coherent and constructive phase of the evolution starts. Christ and Buddha and all other Divine messengers taught us that the "vertical" integration with the Divine essence is possible and necessary to start now in this current human life and there is no reason to postpone it to some distant future. And by the way, the "horizontal" integration is always a wide diversity of paths because there is a great diversity of horizontal structures in the diverse Universe of One Consciousness.

So, there is a "vertical" timeless Unity of the Divine Essence coexisting with the "horizontal" temporal diversity of structures and forms. Notwithstanding the great diversity of horizontal structures and states of consciousness, there is a certain distinction between them: some of them are dualistic, de-evolutionary and incoherent with the Divine Essence, and others are nondual, evolutionary and coherent with the Essense, each of them have their own developmental curvatures and realm of meanings and structures. The beings traverse this horizontal plane in their soul journey pulled by these curvatures, but the choice which curvatures to follow is always available to make for their Free Will.

The reason we know the hundred times of 'further integrative work' are merely theoretical is because you continue to insist there is something akin to a 'de-evolutionary' law of nature, which manifests in dualistic or 'separate me' cognition-perception. The merely theoretical approach is what seeks to establish such rigid definitions and laws and structures which can be placed into neat categories for its comprehension. The living approach requires much more fluidity, flexibility, dynamism of thinking. Nothing should be presumed to be 'incoherent' with anything else from the outset. This is not a comparison between 1+1=2 (nondual realization) with 1+1=3 (intuitive becoming through dualistic structures). If we are thinking in such comparisons, then we haven't taken a living approach yet.

What is de-evolutionary is the lack of consciousness that the 'separate me' structure evolved through certain lawful pathways and is not a reality-in-itself, but an instrument, tool, etc. - one could even call it an Ark - through which we reattune to the Divine rhythms in fully conscious, thinking freedom. It is an image of the Divine which is constant process of growing back to its Source. Once we become conscious of this living evolutionary structure in which we participate, the Ark of ego-consciousness is no longer a liability, but it becomes our greatest asset, the means by which we exercise discerning judgment and purify the lower nature of animalistic tendencies and allow the Cosmic Will to inflow our stream of intuitive becoming.

As we already established in the previous posts, that is where the real heart of our discrepancy lies. Whenever any gradual incarnational process of integration towards Oneness is mentioned, that's when accusations of "anti nondual", "sectarian", etc. start coming in. It is as if someone mentioned that, between the poles of birth and death, one will have to endure a certain number of sleep-wake rhythms if the progression is allowed to unfold in a healthy manner. On this physical plane, such a mention can hardly be questioned. But in the black box of higher worlds, it is felt that such things are blasphemous to our personal freedom and identity with the Divine. It is felt that the green line embedding the Cosmic structure in Cleric's illustration can be thinned out to non-existence and this wouldn't affect any of our spiritual experiences. That is why I say it is a merely theoretical approach.

[Stranger]

The reason we know the hundred times of 'further integrative work' are merely theoretical is because you continue to insist there is something akin to a 'de-evolutionary' law of nature, which manifests in dualistic or 'separate me' cognition-perception. The merely theoretical approach is what seeks to establish such rigid definitions and laws and structures which can be placed into neat categories for its comprehension. The living approach requires much more fluidity, flexibility, dynamism of thinking. Nothing should be presumed to be 'incoherent' with anything else from the outset. This is not a comparison between 1+1=2 (nondual realization) with 1+1=3 (intuitive becoming through dualistic structures). If we are thinking in such comparisons, then we haven't taken a living approach yet.

I already answered to this and I gave plenty of phenomenological approaches to this, including the mediation exercise of this topic, all ignored.

What is de-evolutionary is the lack of consciousness that the 'separate me' structure evolved through certain lawful pathways and is not a reality-in-itself, but an instrument, tool, etc. - one could even call it an Ark - through which we reattune to the Divine rhythms in fully conscious, thinking freedom. It is an image of the Divine which is constant process of growing back to its Source. Once we become conscious of this living evolutionary structure in which we participate, the Ark of ego-consciousness is no longer a liability, but it becomes our greatest asset, the means by which we exercise discerning judgment and purify the lower nature of animalistic tendencies and allow the Cosmic Will to inflow our stream of intuitive becoming.

Disagree. Once we become experientially conscious of the Divine Source, the ego-consciousness becomes a de-evolutionary force.

As we already established in the previous posts, that is where the real heart of our discrepancy lies. Whenever any gradual incarnational process of integration towards Oneness is mentioned, that's when accusations of "anti nondual", "sectarian", etc. start coming in. It is as if someone mentioned that, between the poles of birth and death, one will have to endure a certain number of sleep-wake rhythms if the progression is allowed to unfold in a healthy manner. On this physical plane, such a mention can hardly be questioned. But in the black box of higher worlds, it is felt that such things are blasphemous to our personal freedom and identity with the Divine. It is felt that the green line embedding the Cosmic structure in Cleric's illustration can be thinned out to non-existence and this wouldn't affect any of our spiritual experiences. That is why I say it is a merely theoretical approach.

I keep saying that it is purely experiential and phenomenological approach. You will continue to be stuck in these intellectual models until you experientially realize your Oneness with the divine Essense, and once that happens, there is no going back to the "sleep mode" of dualistic state forgetting again your Oneness with the Divine simply because it no longer serve any good, you don't learn from it anymore, you are in a different metamorphic phase of the evolution, you can't go back from a butterfly to a worm.

BUT, if a soul is not ready for the metamorphosis into the nondual realization, then it is totally OK to stay in the "sleep mode" and continue to slowly evolve trough the ego-consciousness according to the path that you describe, so there is still a value in such gradual approach.

[Federica]

I already answered to this and I gave plenty of phenomenological approaches to this, including the mediation exercise of this topic, all ignored.

Eugene, what Ashvin is saying is that there is a theoretical way and a living way to engage in phenomenological inquiries and meditations, and you are approaching them in the first mode.

[Stranger]

Eugene, what Ashvin is saying is that there is a theoretical way and a living way to engage in phenomenological inquiries and meditations, and you are approaching them in the first mode.

I'm trying to give you meditation exercises, pointers and hints to enter the door of the direct and living experience of the nondual Divine Essense. Those are just exercises and tools that may turn your consciousness into the right direction towards the experiential realization of the Essense. My first point was to emphasize that it is the dualistic perception, the sense-ideas of the "separate objects" and "separate me" that veils your mind from seeing and experiencing the nondual Divine Essense. So, you cannot experience it until you remove that veil, and therefore experiential "punching through" this veil is the first step towards the "vertical" integration with the Divine essence. (In the Buddhist Dzogchen tradition this practice is called exactly that: trek-chod which means "cutting through"). The problem is that you have no experiential references to what I am talking about, so for you my words seem to be only an abstract intellectualization.

[Stranger]

So, guys, let me ask this. I'm trying to point your attention to the possibility of experiential realization of the nondual Divine Essense, and then continuing the soul evolution and structural integration in the mode of consciousness fully coherent with the Divine Essense. I am saying that this is what Christ as well as the Eastern nondual traditions were all pointing to. Still, there is a gradual path through a slow "sleep" mode evolution through the living experience and development of the ego-consciousness described by Anthroposophy. It is your choice which one to choose, and if you want to stick with the latter then I have no problem with that. I think I annoyed you enough already and can leave any time. So, if you are still sincerely interested in exploring the path of nondual realization from phenomenological and experiential approach, then let me know. Otherwise, if you just want to continue intellectual battles and finding all possible reasons not to look at the possibility of the realization of the nondual Divine Essense, then I'm not interested anymore.

[Federica]

So, guys, let me ask this. I'm trying to point your attention to the possibility of experiential realization of the nondual Divine Essense, and then continuing the soul evolution and structural integration in the mode of consciousness fully coherent with the Divine Essense. I am saying that this is what Christ as well as the Eastern nondual traditions were all pointing to. Still, there is a gradual path through a slow "sleep" mode evolution through the living experience and development of the ego-consciousness described by Anthroposophy. It is your choice which one to choose, and if you want to stick with the latter then I have no problem with that. I think I annoyed you enough already and can leave any time. So, if you are still sincerely interested in exploring the path of nondual realization, then let me know. Otherwise, if you just want to continue intellectual battles and finding all possible reasons not to look at the possibility of the realization of the nondual Divine Essense, then I'm not interested anymore.

You are turning it into a proud arm wrestling, but why... You used to say that you were interested in discovering more of the living thinking path, but now that the situation is more laid down on the table, it's as if you can't tolerate anymore to be questioned and are turning yourself into a role of 100% teacher as a reaction rather than simply an inquirer interested in Anthroposophy. This has fluctuated. It doesn't have to be like that. I would like you to stay, but also that you don't constrict yourself in roles... You are appreciated whatever role you tell us that you are taking ...

[Stranger]

You are turning it into a proud arm wrestling, but why... You used to say that you were interested in discovering more of the living thinking path, but now that the situation is more laid down on the table, it's as if you can't tolerate anymore to be questioned and are turning yourself into a role of 100% teacher as a reaction rather than simply an inquirer interested in Anthroposophy. This has fluctuated. It doesn't have to be like that. I would like you to stay, but also that you don't constrict yourself in roles... You are appreciated whatever role you tell us that you are taking ...

The nondual path is also a path of living thinking in the mode of consciousness coherent with the nondual Divine Essense. But According to Ashvin, Anthroposophy is the path of living thinking through the slow evolution of the ego-consciousness (which is an evolution through a dualistic mode). They are both living thinking paths, yet they are different with their dealing with the ego-consciousness. I am not interested in exploring that ego-consciousness path. I am not an arm-wrestling teacher, I am a practitioner on initial stages of the nondual path. So, my question was - are you sincerely interested in exploring the nondual path with me so we can be companions on the path? From what I can see - you guys are not interested, and I have no problem with that, it is your choice, and you don't need to throw at me all your arguments why you are not interested, you can just say "no". But if this is the case (I am not interested in the ego-consciousness living thinking path called "Anthroposophy", and you are not interested in the nondual living thinking path), then there is no point for me to stay here, I don't want to keep annoying you if you are not interested.

[Cleric]

So, guys, let me ask this. I'm trying to point your attention to the possibility of experiential realization of the nondual Divine Essense, and then continuing the soul evolution and structural integration in the mode of consciousness fully coherent with the Divine Essense. I am saying that this is what Christ as well as the Eastern nondual traditions were all pointing to. Still, there is a gradual path through a slow "sleep" mode evolution through the living experience and development of the ego-consciousness described by Anthroposophy. It is your choice which one to choose, and if you want to stick with the latter then I have no problem with that. I think I annoyed you enough already and can leave any time. So, if you are still sincerely interested in exploring the path of nondual realization from phenomenological and experiential approach, then let me know. Otherwise, if you just want to continue intellectual battles and finding all possible reasons not to look at the possibility of the realization of the nondual Divine Essense, then I'm not interested anymore.

Eugene, with the picture a few posts ago I tried to show that we have the differentiation into soul-units and the gradient (the green line) towards the Godhead. We have established that the hierarchy of that gradient is of such a nature that the personal worldlines become integrated as higher order spiritual beings.

It is obvious that you always cast down these things and consider them to be entirely dual strcutures. But why is that? Why do you dismiss the possibility that the hierarchy of spiritual beings – Angels, Archangels and so on to the Cherubim and Seraphim – may be precisely the depth structure of the green line?

Otherwise what you say sounds like this: “Yes, of course there’s a hierarchical gradient from the Godhead to the individuated soul-units (the green line) but no one knows anything about it. Thus it follows that whatever is spoken about a hierarchy of beings must be some dual power pyramid of separate selves.”

[Stranger]

Eugene, with the picture a few posts ago I tried to show that we have the differentiation into soul-units and the gradient (the green line) towards the Godhead. We have established that the hierarchy of that gradient is of such a nature that the personal worldlines become integrated as higher order spiritual beings.

It is obvious that you always cast down these things and consider them to be entirely dual strcutures. But why is that? Why do you dismiss the possibility that the hierarchy of spiritual beings – Angels, Archangels and so on to the Cherubim and Seraphim – may be precisely the depth structure of the green line?

Otherwise what you say sounds like this: “Yes, of course there’s a hierarchical gradient from the Godhead to the individuated soul-units (the green line) but no one knows anything about it. Thus it follows that whatever is spoken about a hierarchy of beings must be some dual power pyramid of separate selves.”

Correct, "Angels, Archangels and so on to the Cherubim and Seraphim" is precisely the depth structure of the green line. These structures are not dual by themselves, structural diversity IS NOT DUALITY. Duality is a mode of consciousness when an individuated spiritual activity holds a sense-belief that it is a separate subjective experiencer and doer which experiences an external world of "objects" and other separate subjective experiencers (other "selves"). An ego-complex/consciousness develops around these primal sense-beliefs, and such soul evolves through a dualistic ego-consciousness evolutionary path which is very inefficient because it is incoherent with the nondual Divine Essense. Likewise, the hierarchical higher-level beings also can function in the dualistic ego-consciousness mode or in the nondual mode. Both hierarchies exist and abide in their own higher order realms. The question is - with which hierarchy we connect and integrate and along which curvature of the evolutionary path we travel. The dualistic realms and hierarchies is still a valid evolutionary path which most of the humanity was following so far, but it is still inferior/inefficient compared to the nondual exactly because itis incoherent with the nondual Divine Essense.

So, I am repeating it again: there is a path of integration with the hierarchy of spiritual beings, but it depends on which hierarchy we are integrating with. The hierarchy of nondual beings is NOT dual structures, they are the structures of diversity within the Oneness of the Divine Essense. Oneness in Essense does not preclude the diversity of structures. Diversity is not duality But if we are moving towards integrating with the hierarchies of dualistic beings along the evolutionary path of ego-consciousness (which is the path of Anthroposophy), then we will remain in the dualistic mode of ego-consciousness incoherent with the Divine Essense.

Your position is understandable. You cannot even imagine how it would be possible to exist in any living-being mode without being a "self", without evolving through the ego-consciousness. This is exactly what Adya said in that video: "if you really want to confuse yourself, try to imagine what you could possibly be other than a self - this is how complete the fiction became".

But also here is a catch: if you do not believe and do not want to even look at the possibility of the nondual realization, it will never work for you. It is only the openness to the Divine Essense in a state of prayer that gives us the access to the direct experience of the Divine Essence. There is a "flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life" (Genesis 3:24) that prevents the souls with not sincere and pure intentions to enter into the "Holy of Holies" of the Divine Essense, and it is only the Divine Grace that opens to us this experience and entrance to the "Holy of Holies".

[Cleric]

Correct, "Angels, Archangels and so on to the Cherubim and Seraphim" is precisely the depth structure of the green line. Ther structures are not dual by themselves, structural diversity IS NOT DUALITY. Duality is a mode of consciousness when an individuated spiritual activity holds a sense-belief that it is a separate subjective experiencer and doer which experiences an external world of "objects" and other separate subjective experiencers (other "selves"). An ego-complex/consciousness develops around these primal sense-beliefs, and such soul evolves through a dualistic ego-consciousness evolutionary path which is very inefficient because it is incoherent with the nondual Divine Essense. Likewise, the hierarchical higher-level beings also can function in the dualistic ego-consciousness mode and in the nondual mode. Both hierarchies exist and abide in their own higher order realms. The question is - with which hierarchy we connect and integrate and along which curvature of the evolutionary path we travel. The dualistic realms and hierarchies is still a valid evolutionary path which most of the humanity was following so far, but it is still inferior/inefficient compared to the nondual exactly because itis incoherent with the nondual Divine Essense.

So, I am repeating it again: there is a path of integration with the hierarchy of spiritual beings, but it depends on which hierarchy we are integrating with. The hierarchy of nondual beings is NOT dual structures, they are the structures of diversity within the Oneness of the Divine Essense. Oneness in Essense does not preclude the diversity of structures. But if we are moving towards integrating with the hierarchies of dualistic beings, then we will remain in the dualistic mode of ego-connciousness incoherent with the Divine Essense.

Your position is understandable. You cannot even imagine how it would be possible to exist in any living-being mode without being a "self", without evolving through the ego-consciousness. This is exactly what Adya said "if you really want to confuse yourself, try to imagine what you could possibly be other than a self - this is how complete the fiction became".

OK, I'm not sure what your conclusion is. Saying that, for example, the Cherubim can exist in dual mode doesn't make any sense because these beings are the very fabric of our Cosmic context, they are the 'carrier wave' onto which our Solar existence is modulated. This in itself shows how far removed the spiritual experience of these lofty beings is, compared to our ensouled one. To imagine that these beings can operate in 'dual' mode is simply projecting our own human-bound sense of self to those Divine Beings. Not only that these beings can't operate in a personal (dual) mode but their whole existence is one of sacrifice, they give up their Cosmic Will 'substance' so that it can be taken up and individuated into lesser beings through the prism of which the Divine Spirit can know itself. We're entering here into details of deep Initiatic science so what is said is obviously very incomplete. But the point is only to show that for these highest beings it makes no sense to speak of dual modes.

So with this in mind, would that hierarchy of Beings coincide with your understanding of the true nondual spiritual hierarchy?